Creating a very light weight, collapsible baton - feedback needed

drop bear

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That's just ridiculous.

We're in a fight. I grab a stick and whack you in the ribs. You back off. You're not dead. You're probably not even broken. Fight over.

We're in a fight. You grab me and I poke you in the arm with a knife. You back off. You've got a superficial puncture would that needs a good wash out and maybe a couple stitches. You're not dead. Fight over.

We're in a fight. You grab me. I choose not to even draw my knife or gun, but instead break your grip and give you a few whacks with my hands and feet. You back off. You're not dead, probably not seriously injured. Fight over.

There is nothing that requires an armed person to fight to the death. If anything, the armed person has MORE options. Because I can do unarmed things too. But you cannot do armed things. Unless you're armed.

We are in a fight you stab me I don't back of and you have to kill me to stop me. By this time I am in range to grab you so you have to keep stabbing me. Which doesn't work that quickly.

I hit you with a bat I create space. Which is enough time to run away.
 

Dirty Dog

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Yeah. This is your 2A Avenger coming out. Not everything is going to kill you.

You are not going to kill someone hitting in the head with an umbrella that's ridiculous. You could hurt them enough to run away. And mark then with a welt so the cops can find them. And that is about it.

And those are accidents. Not wielded with intention.


All old cases, because let's be real. Nobody really carries an umbrella these days.
Clearly, thrusting makes the umbrella strikes more effective. But that is true of almost all striking weapons.
 

Dirty Dog

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We are in a fight you stab me I don't back of and you have to kill me to stop me. By this time I am in range to grab you so you have to keep stabbing me. Which doesn't work that quickly.
Depends on where I stab you. And of course, ignores all the OTHER things I can be doing as well.
I hit you with a bat I create space. Which is enough time to run away.
You have evidence to support the claim that being hit with a bat is more and more rapidly debilitating than being stabbed?
 

lklawson

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Yeah. This is your 2A Avenger coming out. Not everything is going to kill you.
Why the frag would I deploy a deadly force weapon if I'm not facing a threat trying to kill me? Not only would that be stupid, it's illegal and immoral.

Don't deploy a deadly force weapon unless you are under threat of death or serious bodily injury.

You are not going to kill someone hitting in the head with an umbrella that's ridiculous.
Depends on the umbrella. And if it's not capable of that level of injury, then, frankly, it sucks as a weapon and you should find something that works.

You could hurt them enough to run away. And mark then with a welt so the cops can find them. And that is about it.
This whole discussion is predicated on the assumption that you've already tried to escape (or couldn't, for reasons), and that didn't work. If you can escape, then escape. Duh.
 

lklawson

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We are in a fight you stab me I don't back of and you have to kill me to stop me. By this time I am in range to grab you so you have to keep stabbing me. Which doesn't work that quickly.
Sez who? I've read military medical reports on the process. Torso stabs, particularly to lungs and heart area, tend to be lethal and quickly effective. IMS Hockheim's book digs pretty deep into them.

I hit you with a bat I create space. Which is enough time to run away.
You know, unless your attacker crashes space and gets inside your swing radius. I mean, it's not like every martial art in the world teach that against a club or anything.

C'mon now, you're just arguing to argue, aren't you.
 

Blindside

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Thanks-- way too big and heavy. The hiking poles are featherweight by comparison.
How light a stick are you looking for and how long? As a point of comparison a "typical" for lack of better work escrima stick runs about 8 ounces/230 grams.
 

drop bear

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Sez who? I've read military medical reports on the process. Torso stabs, particularly to lungs and heart area, tend to be lethal and quickly effective. IMS Hockheim's book digs pretty deep into them.
Knife / Counter-Knife Combatives book by W. Hock Hochheim

That isn't a military medical report.

I dealt with a guy who was walking around with a sucking chest wound for ten minutes from a knife before he went in to shock.
 
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drop bear

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Why the frag would I deploy a deadly force weapon if I'm not facing a threat trying to kill me? Not only would that be stupid, it's illegal and immoral.

Don't deploy a deadly force weapon unless you are under threat of death or serious bodily injury.

So therefore everything even an umbrella becomes a deadly threat. I have heard the spiel
 

drop bear

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You know, unless your attacker crashes space and gets inside your swing radius. I mean, it's not like every martial art in the world teach that against a club or anything.

C'mon now, you're just arguing to argue, aren't you

But then he trips over cracking his head leaving me time to escape.

Come to me with something concrete and you will get something concrete.
 

drop bear

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Depends on the umbrella. And if it's not capable of that level of injury, then, frankly, it sucks as a weapon and you should find something that works.

Lol. No. That is just crazy talk again. You are subscribing to a bunch of hype you get sold about fights being all sorts of life and death all the time.

It's a marketing ploy. Not real.
 

drop bear

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Depends on where I stab you. And of course, ignores all the OTHER things I can be doing as well.

You have evidence to support the claim that being hit with a bat is more and more rapidly debilitating than being stabbed?

Nobody is providing evidence about anything. Why would I start now.
 

Dirty Dog

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That isn't a military medical report.

I dealt with a guy who was walking around with a sucking chest wound for ten minutes from a knife before he went in to shock.
Which proves nothing, even if true. I've seen a guy shot point blank in the head with a .45ACP and walk away. I still don't recommend it.
A "sucking chest wound" sounds impressive. And it can be horrific, with damage to the lung parenchyma, damage to arteries and veins, damage to the heart itself... But it can also be a minor thing that penetrated the chest cavity without damaging anything.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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Lol. No. That is just crazy talk again. You are subscribing to a bunch of hype you get sold about fights being all sorts of life and death all the time.

It's a marketing ploy. Not real.
I looked up people dying/killed from umbrella's just out of curiosity. If you take out the people that died from a lightning strike while holding an umbrella, I found 3 cases of people dying by umbrella attack. One involved a poison dart hidden in an umbrella (it seems like that one might have happened a couple times), the next wasn't an attack, but a lady getting crushed by one of those giant beach umbrellas (I don't think it'd be feasible for someone to carry it), and a third where someone got killed with a normal umbrella. Umbrella killer Gerald Rowatt admits attack in prison
If you read that article, the umbrella wasn't capable of killing the person by bashing. He tried that first, his umbrella broke, then he stabbed the broken shaft into the guys neck, which is what killed him.

Finally, I found two failed attempts. One where the guy got stabbed by an umbrella, and did not die, and another where someone was bashed in the head multiple times with an umbrella, and also did not die (linking that one because it's relevant, but you'd have to either pay or know a way to bypass a paywall to actually read the full article, which as a moderator here I do not condone) Here

So ultimately, I did not find any cases supporting that you can kill someone by bashing them with an umbrella-which I would expect at least a few cases of given how prominent umbrellas are by people walking alone-and instead I found cases of the umbrella not being strong enough to do exactly that, but it working after it was essentially turned into a knife (and then took a few minutes for the victim to bleed out).

As close to an objective review I could take, and ultimately not too relevant, but since it seems an umbrella is unable to take kill someone or even knock them out, I get the feeling a lightweight baton (that from OP's requests would have to weigh equal to or less than an umbrella) would also not be particularly effective, especially since they don't have the stabbing capabilities other weapons do.
 

drop bear

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I looked up people dying/killed from umbrella's just out of curiosity. If you take out the people that died from a lightning strike while holding an umbrella, I found 3 cases of people dying by umbrella attack. One involved a poison dart hidden in an umbrella (it seems like that one might have happened a couple times), the next wasn't an attack, but a lady getting crushed by one of those giant beach umbrellas (I don't think it'd be feasible for someone to carry it), and a third where someone got killed with a normal umbrella. Umbrella killer Gerald Rowatt admits attack in prison
If you read that article, the umbrella wasn't capable of killing the person by bashing. He tried that first, his umbrella broke, then he stabbed the broken shaft into the guys neck, which is what killed him.

Finally, I found two failed attempts. One where the guy got stabbed by an umbrella, and did not die, and another where someone was bashed in the head multiple times with an umbrella, and also did not die (linking that one because it's relevant, but you'd have to either pay or know a way to bypass a paywall to actually read the full article, which as a moderator here I do not condone) Here

So ultimately, I did not find any cases supporting that you can kill someone by bashing them with an umbrella-which I would expect at least a few cases of given how prominent umbrellas are by people walking alone-and instead I found cases of the umbrella not being strong enough to do exactly that, but it working after it was essentially turned into a knife (and then took a few minutes for the victim to bleed out).

As close to an objective review I could take, and ultimately not too relevant, but since it seems an umbrella is unable to take kill someone or even knock them out, I get the feeling a lightweight baton (that from OP's requests would have to weigh equal to or less than an umbrella) would also not be particularly effective, especially since they don't have the stabbing capabilities other weapons do.

Still going to hurt though. Which may be the path OP wants to take.

Like giving someone a slap to send them a message.
 

drop bear

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Which proves nothing, even if true. I've seen a guy shot point blank in the head with a .45ACP and walk away. I still don't recommend it.
A "sucking chest wound" sounds impressive. And it can be horrific, with damage to the lung parenchyma, damage to arteries and veins, damage to the heart itself... But it can also be a minor thing that penetrated the chest cavity without damaging anything.

Nobody is proving anything. I mean you get that as part of this discussion right?
 

Gerry Seymour

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Thanks for the detailed and thoughtful reply. I like the suggestion of testing the hiking pole against a simulated target.

While scenarios are, of course, unpredictable, the strategy I've been taught is to defend, strike, and get the hell out of there. One would hope that a few smacks from hiking pole would be enough to create an exit.

Oddly, my community allows concealed carry of blades, with certain limitations, but not batons. I am comfortable wielding a blade, but preferred the reach and relative non-lethality of an impact weapon.

Another thing I am considering--an aluminum water bottle. I have one that makes an excellent weapon, the only drawback being the less than ideal handhold.
I think this idea is taught too often without enough consideration in the self-defense circles. Say you hit someone with a solid shot, but (given a lightweight weapon) not doing any serious damage. Now you run. They do, too, because you've done nothing to incapacitate them. If you're going to use a striking weapon to create an exit, it needs to be able to incapacitate or stun. Anything less, and you're just using it to try to make them want to stay a step back, which likely won't work if they're committed.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Maybe, maybe not. Impact weapons should impact. Blunt force trauma is what makes the grade, not stinging raps that raise a welt. That's for training.


If your impact weapon doesn't have the capacity for lethality then it's not particularly useful. If it can't break bones then, frankly, you're just hoping that a little bit of pain or bravado will make the attacker go away and you can't depend on that.

If you really want a decent impact weapon that you can carry and nobody questions, carry a cane. Go get a cheap "stock cane" from a feed store, they're usually hickory, and carry that. Nobody questions it at all. I've flown with canes and gone through DC security with them.

Or if you want a quality workmanship hickory cane at a good price, I can recommend Medlin's Good Wood.


They're better than harsh words, but, yes, they're hard to hold and half the time they're empty or half empty, making them far less useful as an impact tool.

If you are really interested in less-lethal options, the absolute, hands down, best record of success goes to pepper spray. There have been a number of studies comparing outcomes using less-lethal options and, of all of them, pepper spray has the best track record. ...which is still not 100%. Depending on the study, success ranges from somewhere around 65-ish% to up around 90%.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
And pepper spray - when it works reasonably well - fits the "defend and run" need quite nicely. Even if they are still coming, if their eyes are watering, you've got a better chance of escape. And if they pause even just a moment at the pain, all the better.
 

Gerry Seymour

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So therefore everything even an umbrella becomes a deadly threat. I have heard the spiel
I think in part you guys are dealing with a difference in legal systems. In the US, if you use something that can potentially be lethal in some reasonable way, it's often viewed as a lethal weapon, as I understand it.
 
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