Creating a very light weight, collapsible baton - feedback needed

Argus

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What reasons?

Fiddly, fragile (one of my FMA teachers actually did a test with a number of common folders, wearing mail hand protection, and found that quite a number of them collapsed or came unlocked and folded on the hand when thrusting, and even among trainers that I've owned, I've found liner locks to fail and close on my fingers during partner practice, especially if any twisting movement occurs) and likely to close on your hand, extremely difficult to open under stress, and often carried in the front pocket which tends to "seal up" when you lower your center of gravity or step backwards or to the side in response to a threat, especially with jeans pockets that are cut horizontally and not vertically (I use this "sealing up" to my advantage when camping/bushcrafting, as you do a lot of squatting. I hate vertical pockets because everything falls out of your pockets the moment you squat. I've had stuff falling out of my pockets left and right wearing fancy outdoor pants, which must be designed by somebody who's never actually worn them outdoors before...).

I've trained to deploy folders under pressure extensively, and it's just really, really difficult and unreliable. I think a lot of people get good at reaching into their pocket and flicking their knife open, and think they're set, but it becomes ten times harder to do when someone is actually coming at you with their own knife. In such training, I've honestly had far more success just responding empty handed, or with other handier implements, such as throwing my hat in the attacker's face, or accessing a pen in my front shirt pocket.

Another thing to consider is that knives have a somewhat narrow potential role in self defense. The only time, as I understand it, that you would be justified in using one is in response to a lethal threat. Most of the time, that lethal threat is going to be a fire-arm. Occasionally, it might be another knife. Either way, you're looking at knife versus knife, or perhaps more likely, knife versus gun, and neither of those are particularly appealing prospects. If you're going to carry a lethal weapon, a fire-arm is a much more prudent choice.

The damage that knives do also just look really bad. It may be irrational, or unfair, but I think juries are much more friendly to the idea that you shot or clubbed someone in self defense rather than cutting them. I admit that I have no evidence to back up this perception, though.

Batons, or fixed blades, fall in-between folding knives and fire-arms, and I would consider more practical, especially if carried in the belt where they can be much more reliably accessed.
 
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Argus

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Anyway this is the fiddly argument against folding knives.

And, as I said, have them deploy while moving out of the way of / parrying an incoming attack, and they likely won't even be able to get the folder out of their pocket. Not saying that some people can't, but even with extensive training, it's difficult and fiddly.

I like the design of the knife in the video, by the way.
 

drop bear

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And, as I said, have them deploy while moving out of the way of / parrying an incoming attack, and they likely won't even be able to get the folder out of their pocket. Not saying that some people can't, but even with extensive training, it's difficult and fiddly.

I like the design of the knife in the video, by the way.

There are a lot of theories on knife defence and I tend to take all of it with a grain of salt because there is almost nobody who has knifed enough guys to be considered an expert.

And look. I find the ideas behind it fun. But I am probably never going to need it.

Anyway there is a trend with these little defensive knives that lean towards horribly expensive for what they are trying to do. Benchmade do one. Shiv works do one. And have a cool wrestling based knife system that looks fun.

Personally I like the le duck or le hawk? Because they are cheap. Although the sheath is supposed to fall apart or something. I don't know I don't own one.

And I would still go that whip I mentioned because I dont see anyone running in to that if it gets going.
 

lklawson

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While scenarios are, of course, unpredictable, the strategy I've been taught is to defend, strike, and get the hell out of there. One would hope that a few smacks from hiking pole would be enough to create an exit.
Maybe, maybe not. Impact weapons should impact. Blunt force trauma is what makes the grade, not stinging raps that raise a welt. That's for training.

Oddly, my community allows concealed carry of blades, with certain limitations, but not batons. I am comfortable wielding a blade, but preferred the reach and relative non-lethality of an impact weapon.
If your impact weapon doesn't have the capacity for lethality then it's not particularly useful. If it can't break bones then, frankly, you're just hoping that a little bit of pain or bravado will make the attacker go away and you can't depend on that.

If you really want a decent impact weapon that you can carry and nobody questions, carry a cane. Go get a cheap "stock cane" from a feed store, they're usually hickory, and carry that. Nobody questions it at all. I've flown with canes and gone through DC security with them.

Or if you want a quality workmanship hickory cane at a good price, I can recommend Medlin's Good Wood.

Another thing I am considering--an aluminum water bottle. I have one that makes an excellent weapon, the only drawback being the less than ideal handhold.
They're better than harsh words, but, yes, they're hard to hold and half the time they're empty or half empty, making them far less useful as an impact tool.

If you are really interested in less-lethal options, the absolute, hands down, best record of success goes to pepper spray. There have been a number of studies comparing outcomes using less-lethal options and, of all of them, pepper spray has the best track record. ...which is still not 100%. Depending on the study, success ranges from somewhere around 65-ish% to up around 90%.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

lklawson

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A bat or a sap or a tazer or mace.
Carrying around a baseball bat? That's going to get you noticed and not in a good way.
A sap is often illegal, at least here in the U.S.
Tazer's are cool and I really want them to work better than they actually do. But their actual track record is not as good as you'd want. Depending on the study, it's usually north of 50%. ...usually.
Mace? Well, pepper spray I'm assuming. Pepper spray is actually a pretty good option for less-lethal response. It has a pretty decent track record of success.


And something I would get in less trouble for.

Knives illustrate the difference between killing and stopping. I don't care if they die. I want to break their current action. And I want to do it right now.
These things are hardly mutually exclusive. Honestly, there's essentially no legal difference here in the U.S. between using a baseball bat, a hammer, or a knife. It's all, legally, potentially lethal. The only difference is about 70 years worth of international propaganda that knives are exclusivly the tools of criminals. Set aside the "social" aspect of "how the general public thinks about it" and knives are no different than any other tool capable of lethality.

Pace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

lklawson

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To small. To fiddly. They do too much damage and don't really do the thing you want them to do.
I disagree. They're quite capable of doing the thing you want them to. I.E.: make the bad guy stop doing whatever it was that was threatening your life. Um... you are only using a weapon response to someone actually threatening you with death or serious bodily harm, right? I mean, legally speaking, you can't club someone upside the head with an expanding baton, baseball bat, or a sap and claim it's "non-lethal."


So you can say stab a guy and he may wander off and die in a pool of blood 15 minutes later.
Or you can stab a guy and he bleeds out in 30 seconds.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

lklawson

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Fiddly, fragile (one of my FMA teachers actually did a test with a number of common folders, wearing mail hand protection, and found that quite a number of them collapsed or came unlocked and folded on the hand when thrusting,
Buy better quality knives. Spend more than $20 at the hardware store.

and even among trainers that I've owned, I've found liner locks to fail and close on my fingers during partner practice, especially if any twisting movement occurs) and likely to close on your hand, extremely difficult to open under stress, and often carried in the front pocket which tends to "seal up" when you lower your center of gravity or step backwards or to the side in response to a threat, especially with jeans pockets that are cut horizontally and not vertically (I use this "sealing up" to my advantage when camping/bushcrafting, as you do a lot of squatting. I hate vertical pockets because everything falls out of your pockets the moment you squat. I've had stuff falling out of my pockets left and right wearing fancy outdoor pants, which must be designed by somebody who's never actually worn them outdoors before...).
If your carry method drops your carried item, then your carry method sucks. Don't do it that way. If the pockets in your pants don't work, then you need different pants with different pockets.

I've trained to deploy folders under pressure extensively, and it's just really, really difficult and unreliable.
No offense but if so, then you need better training. Honestly, humans have been doing this reliably for, literally, a couple of centuries now. I can personally document using folders for fighting as far back as 1827 and almost certainly much earlier (that's just the first one which comes to mind), along with the challenges of deploying folders as opposed to fixed blades. The 1849 Manual Del Baratero has a pretty in-depth discussion of using a folding knife for fighting. I mean, the challenges you're discussing aren't exactly new information and humans have had a really long time to solve them.

I think a lot of people get good at reaching into their pocket and flicking their knife open, and think they're set, but it becomes ten times harder to do when someone is actually coming at you with their own knife.
Everything becomes harder during adrenal stress. Whether your trying to deploy against another knife, a baseball bat, or a mob of ninjas is irrelevant.

Another thing to consider is that knives have a somewhat narrow potential role in self defense. The only time, as I understand it, that you would be justified in using one is in response to a lethal threat.
That's the only time you're legally justified in deploying ANY weapon capable of death or sever injury, including baseball bats, hammers, guns, canes, flagpoles, and umbrellas.

Look, I know that there's a century-long propaganda campaign against knives for self defense. But, honestly, they're no different from any other weapon. If you use a hammer that can smash a person's head in, that's considered lethal force, legally speaking. If you jam the ferrule of an umbrella into someone's stomach, that's considered lethal force, legally speaking. The tool doesn't matter.

Most of the time, that lethal threat is going to be a fire-arm.
I'm sorry, but that's just not true. The sum-total of lethal-force attacks from categories not involving firearms, which include hammers, fists, feet, knives, screwdrivers, ball bats, etc., far exceed threats with guns.

Occasionally, it might be another knife. Either way, you're looking at knife versus knife, or perhaps more likely, knife versus gun, and neither of those are particularly appealing prospects.
Again, that's not actually true. There are a ton of different lethal threats, including the OP's "collapsible baton."

If you're going to carry a lethal weapon, a fire-arm is a much more prudent choice.
I more-or-less agree. ...if carrying a firearm is an option for you. For many people it isn't. I'm a fan of firearms for self defense. But I worn on base. I cannot carry a firearm there. So options two through four become much more attractive.

Besides, who says you can only carry one thing?

The damage that knives do also just look really bad. It may be irrational, or unfair, but I think juries are much more friendly to the idea that you shot or clubbed someone in self defense rather than cutting them. I admit that I have no evidence to back up this perception, though.
Well, there has been a prolonged anti-knife campaign going back to at least the 1920s. I'm not sure how effective it has been on the legal front (trials) but I know it's been effective at shaping the general opinion of the public.

Batons, or fixed blades, fall in-between folding knives and fire-arms,
How so?

and I would consider more practical, especially if carried in the belt where they can be much more reliably accessed.
I'm not sure what you mean. I might agree but I would like a bit more description on what you mean here.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

Dirty Dog

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Fiddly, fragile (one of my FMA teachers actually did a test with a number of common folders, wearing mail hand protection, and found that quite a number of them collapsed or came unlocked and folded on the hand when thrusting, and even among trainers that I've owned, I've found liner locks to fail and close on my fingers during partner practice, especially if any twisting movement occurs) and likely to close on your hand, extremely difficult to open under stress, and often carried in the front pocket which tends to "seal up" when you lower your center of gravity or step backwards or to the side in response to a threat, especially with jeans pockets that are cut horizontally and not vertically (I use this "sealing up" to my advantage when camping/bushcrafting, as you do a lot of squatting. I hate vertical pockets because everything falls out of your pockets the moment you squat. I've had stuff falling out of my pockets left and right wearing fancy outdoor pants, which must be designed by somebody who's never actually worn them outdoors before...).
There are really really simple answers to all of this.
Stop buying crappy knives. A poor lock is one of the cardinal signs of a crappy knife.
I agree that front pocket carry can be problematic. So stop carrying it there.
Buy a decent knife. With a clip. Put it in your hip pocket. Or inside your waistband clipped to your belt.
Basically, none of these are reasons not to carry a knife. They are reasons to carry a good knife properly.
I've trained to deploy folders under pressure extensively, and it's just really, really difficult and unreliable. I think a lot of people get good at reaching into their pocket and flicking their knife open, and think they're set, but it becomes ten times harder to do when someone is actually coming at you with their own knife. In such training, I've honestly had far more success just responding empty handed, or with other handier implements, such as throwing my hat in the attacker's face, or accessing a pen in my front shirt pocket.
So that's a "you" thing, not a knife thing.
Another thing to consider is that knives have a somewhat narrow potential role in self defense. The only time, as I understand it, that you would be justified in using one is in response to a lethal threat. Most of the time, that lethal threat is going to be a fire-arm. Occasionally, it might be another knife. Either way, you're looking at knife versus knife, or perhaps more likely, knife versus gun, and neither of those are particularly appealing prospects. If you're going to carry a lethal weapon, a fire-arm is a much more prudent choice.
If you're in a fight with anything vs a weapon, you're going to have a bad day. However, based on 40+ years in the ER and coming from a family of cops, and stats from the FBI, this is incorrect. Blunt weapons (hands, feet, clubs, hammers, baseball bats, golf clubs, whatever) account for 57.9% of assaults. If we ignore the body-weaponry, and stick to just things people pick up, that's still 31.4%. Body weapons, then, are 26.6%. Firearms of any kind are 24.2%, and sharp objects of any kind are 18.1%.
So the odds of a knife or a gun being used against you are very similar. But you're more likely to be assaulted with a blunt object, clearly. So... no. What you're saying is incorrect. If you're involved in an assault, the odds definitely favor a blunt weapon being involved.

Batons, or fixed blades, fall in-between folding knives and fire-arms, and I would consider more practical, especially if carried in the belt where they can be much more reliably accessed.
So put your knife (a good one, not the junk you've used) in your belt. Right next to your gun. Because options are good.
 

drop bear

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These things are hardly mutually exclusive. Honestly, there's essentially no legal difference here in the U.S. between using a baseball bat, a hammer, or a knife. It's all, legally, potentially lethal. The only difference is about 70 years worth of international propaganda that knives are exclusivly the tools of criminals. Set aside the "social" aspect of "how the general public thinks about it" and knives are no different than any other tool capable of lethality.

Pace favor your sword,
Kirk

Not necessarily about the legality. I don't want to have to continue to fight the guy until he dies.
 

lklawson

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Not necessarily about the legality. I don't want to have to continue to fight the guy until he dies.
At this point we're not caring if he dies. We just want him to stop doing what ever it is that he was doing that made us deploy a weapon to defend ourselves (threatening our lives). It's not about killing, it's about stopping. Unfortunately for bad guys, often one of the most effective way of stopping can lead to their dying.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

drop bear

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At this point we're not caring if he dies. We just want him to stop doing what ever it is that he was doing that made us deploy a weapon to defend ourselves (threatening our lives). It's not about killing, it's about stopping. Unfortunately for bad guys, often one of the most effective way of stopping can lead to their dying.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Well not really
I could for example choke a guy unconscious more quickly than you could knife a guy unconscious.

It takes forever to stab a guy until he looses the ability to fight back.
 
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drop bear

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That's the only time you're legally justified in deploying ANY weapon capable of death or sever injury, including baseball bats, hammers, guns, canes, flagpoles, and umbrellas.

You don't think you could smack a guy with an umbrella under a lot less dire circumstances than you could if you stabbed someone?
 

lklawson

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Well not really
I could for example choke a guy unconscious more quickly than you could knife a guy unconscious.
Depends on where the cut is. Both work under the same base physiological theory: deny blood pressure to the brain. Anything that prevents blood flow at the same rate as a blood-choke works just as quickly. There are several major arteries near the surface that could suffice and don't require the defender to be in body contact with someone struggling and flailing, while potentially holding a weapon.

Don't misunderstand, I love blood-chokes. They're just not the end-all, be-all of self-defense, particularly in comparison to weapons.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

lklawson

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You don't think you could smack a guy with an umbrella under a lot less dire circumstances than you could if you stabbed someone?
It's not about what I "think." It's about what the weapon is capable of. If you stab someone with an umbrella, it's a deadly weapon. If you bash someone upside the head with the blunt end of an umbrella, it's a deadly weapon.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

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Neither does the person with the gun/knife/baseball bat/tank/RPG/whatever.

Not really.
That's just ridiculous.

We're in a fight. I grab a stick and whack you in the ribs. You back off. You're not dead. You're probably not even broken. Fight over.

We're in a fight. You grab me and I poke you in the arm with a knife. You back off. You've got a superficial puncture would that needs a good wash out and maybe a couple stitches. You're not dead. Fight over.

We're in a fight. You grab me. I choose not to even draw my knife or gun, but instead break your grip and give you a few whacks with my hands and feet. You back off. You're not dead, probably not seriously injured. Fight over.

There is nothing that requires an armed person to fight to the death. If anything, the armed person has MORE options. Because I can do unarmed things too. But you cannot do armed things. Unless you're armed.
 

drop bear

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It's not about what I "think." It's about what the weapon is capable of. If you stab someone with an umbrella, it's a deadly weapon. If you bash someone upside the head with the blunt end of an umbrella, it's a deadly weapon.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Yeah. This is your 2A Avenger coming out. Not everything is going to kill you.

You are not going to kill someone hitting in the head with an umbrella that's ridiculous. You could hurt them enough to run away. And mark then with a welt so the cops can find them. And that is about it.
 
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