Court Declines to Review Abortion Law

[shesulsa]

I have known and do know both; women who were forced into some kind decision by their parents at an obscenely young age, and those who were completely informed as to their choices and live with their decision today.

Guess which ones are NOT in therapy? The ladies who made their choice of their own 13 and 14 year old accord.

Look, kids this age have no business having sex - but the Good Lord or the Earth Goddess, Gaia, the Universe, the Big Bang, whatever you want to credit with the creation or evolution of us all, gave every single darned one of us something that seems to toss reason and values right out the ****ing window - hormones.

And young girls STILL buy into this falsehood that if they sleep with a guy, they've earned some kind of status. This mentality will not stop by denying kids condoms, birth control, and young girls abortions.

Let me make something perfectly clear here: ABORTIONS HAVE ALWAYS HAPPENED ... AND THEY WILL KEEP ON HAPPENING, LEGAL OR NOT.

You don't have to like it. You can think it's evil and wrong. That is your prerogative as an American. And it is also the prerogative of other Americans to believe that the welfare of children can be taken into account in a way that does not suit you.

If you believe that ending any sort of life is wrong, then that must apply across the board - you must oppose abortion, you must oppose euthanasia of domestic animals, you must oppose the death penalty and you must support the extension of life of those who are vegetative and can be kept alive artificially.

Spirituality and reality sometimes just don't have a happy medium.

When all those who stump against abortion, put your money and YOUR life where your mouth is - adopt a child or two and DO NOT reproduce of your physical accord. When the orphanages and county agencies must close because there are too few unwanted children to warrant an entire facility for, THEN I will support legislation against abortion.

 

[Lisa]

I have to admit, my views on abortion have changed since my younger years. I think having children of your own and having that "I love you so much I would die for you" instinct when you bring them into the world does that for you. Growing up does that to you.

I went through what I think is a pretty normal childhood and teenage years. I watched my friends get pregnant and "disappear" to have their children, have abortions or decide to keep them. I, like Geo, have found that the ones who at least had a say in their choices, who had parents who listened to them are the ones today who are the happiest. Now they just wonder what that child would be like or where they are. It is a whole empty place inside them.

Abortions are long standing. They were dirty things in the past (and still are in some circumstances) and cause many women to end up sterile or worse yet to die. I think the true way to end teenage abortion is educating our children. Then maybe the debate on whether they are able to make that decision will be a mute point. Maybe I am an idealist, oh well, so be it. I was lucky in my day I had a mom who was open and honest with me. She said "protect yourself, for you are the one in the end who will lose the most beit your youth cause of raising a child or the memory of the abortion". She refused to put her head in the sand and think that I wasn't going to have premarital sex but instead taught me and showed me ways to protect myself from being in the situation. Don't get me wrong, it wasn't a free pass by no means. I truly thank her for her honestly and openess about such a big thing in my teen years. The pressure to have sex is incredible at that age. Many a time I dragged friends to the free clinic for birth control. I had one friend whose mom found out and took them away from her, she ended up pregnant a few months later. I guess her mom thought if she didn't have the birth control she wouldn't have sex... she was very wrong.

When the belief that doing it standing up, in the water, or the first time is a free pass is crushed and the kids are educated and birth control is readily available, then unwanted pregnancies should take a huge dive downwards. Education is truly the key, IMHO.

Apologies for the thread gank.

 

[shesulsa]

Education is truly the key, IMHO.

Truer words were never spoken, Lisa. The educated derilict cannot say s/he did not know what they were getting into and how to avoid it.

Unfortunately, most parents will not discuss these sensitive topics with their children and, even when they do, the discussion is usually biased and negative. This is a good reason why I think Sex Education must be provided by a neutral party and be treated as a HEALTH issue with moral consequences. Let someone else teach the children the reality of the situation, then parents can instill the value portion of a child's education.

 

[RandomPhantom700]

I think there is a bif difference. It's not a case of the parents forcing the child to do something; it's a case of 'forcing', if you wish, the child to live through the consequences of something she has already done.

Unfortunately, life does not have a rewind button and you don't get extra lives by popping a few more quarters in; welcome to adulthood

So in other words, the point is to punish the girl for having had sex. This would be perfectly fine if it was the parents doing it through whatever punishment means they usually employ, but this is the government essentially making the girl ruin the next 20 years of her life.

Keep in mind, we have no idea why the girl would end up pregnant. Coud be that she's a complete skank, could be that the condom ripped, could be that she was raped.

Like I said, let the parents teach her to be accountable. I realize there are consequences to actions, and by the way, thanks for the implication that I need to grow up. :321: However, I think that the legislature forcing the girl to commit the next 20 years of her life to something she doesn't want, no matter how she ended up pregnant, isn't justified based only on parental autonomy.

 

[Deuce]

Let's say there's a 13 year old girl that gets pregnant. Her parents are very religous and let their children know how strongly they feel about the evils of sex before marriage. So, there's this 13 year old girl who's pregnant and absolutly terrified to tell her parents for fear of them being very dissapointed in her. She knows that she can get an abortion without parental consent. What do you think she's going to do? At 13, many kids will do almost anything to not get caught doing something their parents wouldn't approve of. Do you think all 13 year old girls in this situation will truly think this decision though and do what they believe is the right thing to do for them? I doubt it. Some of them will see abortion as the only way out of this situation without their parents findind out. I think a decision as serious as this should be made after careful consideration and not out of fear.

I think the girl should be able to make her own choice in the end, but the parents should already know she's pregnant so that her decision isn't made for the wrong reasons. Hopefully her parents are understanding and will support her thought-out decision.

 

[RandomPhantom700]

Hopefully her parents are understanding and will support her thought-out decision.

Here's the problem though: her parents may not be understanding and may not support her decision. They may decide that abortion is evil, or that she deserves the kid as a punishment for daring to have sex. Or get raped, we don't know. The law just said that parental consent was required for abortions, there's no doctrine or subsection that addresses how the pregnancy came about. According to the law in question, if they decide against it, then she's screwed. Whatever plans she had go out the window. It's her body that gets bloated and weighed down and outta whack for 9 months, her legs that are about to pop out a kid when those 9 months are up, and her next 2 decades that get changed, and probably her entire life goals put on hold. In short, it's her decision, not whether or not to have sex, but whether or not to get the abortion done. Yet despite the fact that the burden of going through with the pregnancy weighs entirely on the girl, the law says that the choice is up to the parents. Does this sound right to you?

 

[Ray]

Perhaps before venturing an opinion on the specific law that was overturned and subsequently declined for review, we should read the law to see how poorly it was written. If a law is unsoundly written, it can't stand.

Abortion is a tough subject. Very touchy, and each incident of it should be well considered by the female and perhaps her guardians. Of course, society has a voice in what we can and can't do, too.

In an ideal world, there would be no need for abortions on demand because there would be no unwanted pregnancies. In a less ideal world, a pregnant minor would be able to speak with her parents. Obviously we live in a far less ideal world then either.

As a parent, I understand why a parent might need to be part of the decision making process for a minor. I also understand why there are times when it would be a mistake for a parent to be involved. Counseling should take place before a decision is made---but who does the counseling? If someone has an anti-abortion bias or an abortion bias then they, as counselors, would slant the counseling.

And should a 13 yr girl, alone, really be expected to make the right decision in all cases? At young ages, an unwanted pregnancy could seem like the end of the world. Maybe 17 year old girls (young women) can be mature enough to make a good decision for themselves.

I wished I had more solutions and less questions.

 

[Deuce]

I agree that the decision should ultimately be made by the girl, but the choice should be made for the right reasons. Getting an abortion out of fear of their parents finding out dosen't seem like a very well thought out and informed decision. Maybe a counseling session with an unbiased health representative would allow the girl to make a decsion that is best for her. Many of these girls will need guidance to do the proper thing.

How many of you parents out there would be completely comfortable with your daughters getting an abortion without you knowing about it before hand? Especially at a young age 13 or 14 years old?

 

[rmcrobertson]

I've decided that I'm going to start pushing for Federal legislation requiring all men over 30, and all men with a family history of prostate cancer or colon cancer, to be required to have full rectal and PSA exams every year and a full colonoscopy every five.

After all, we as a society can no longer afford to pay for men who're irresponsible about fundamental checkups; what's more, it's immoral of men to keep risking their lives when there are simple tests available.

You say that it's your body, not anybody else's, and you'll do what you wish to with it? Oh, dear me, no. You don't have the right to throw away a life in such a thoughtless fashion.

 

[Lisa]

I agree that the decision should ultimately be made by the girl, but the choice should be made for the right reasons. Getting an abortion out of fear of their parents finding out dosen't seem like a very well thought out and informed decision. Maybe a counseling session with an unbiased health representative would allow the girl to make a decsion that is best for her. Many of these girls will need guidance to do the proper thing.

How many of you parents out there would be completely comfortable with your daughters getting an abortion without you knowing about it before hand? Especially at a young age 13 or 14 years old?

I may be wrong but I highly doubt anyone is going to chime in and say "I would" to that last question of yours, Deuce, and in the same instance what about the 17 year old that will turn 18 in short order. What difference does one day or a week really make in the maturity of an individual? I worked in the health care profession for many a year and have friends that are L&D nurses who watch babies having babies. There are many circumstances and this whole issue is so heated with people's sense of morality and compliled by emotion. Unfortunately, as with most "heated" discussions, there is no answer that will fully make everyone happy, cause you can't please everyone all of the time. The best you can do, individually as a parent, is hope and pray that you have instilled a sense of self worth in your daughters (and to and extent your sons) to make this issue not be one that your child is ever faced with.

 

[Deuce]

I've decided that I'm going to start pushing for Federal legislation requiring all men over 30, and all men with a family history of prostate cancer or colon cancer, to be required to have full rectal and PSA exams every year and a full colonoscopy every five.

After all, we as a society can no longer afford to pay for men who're irresponsible about fundamental checkups; what's more, it's immoral of men to keep risking their lives when there are simple tests available.

You say that it's your body, not anybody else's, and you'll do what you wish to with it? Oh, dear me, no. You don't have the right to throw away a life in such a thoughtless fashion.

If you don't mind me asking, what does this have to do with the issue being discussed? A minor under the age of 18 and a man over 30 isn't a very good comparison. The main issue is the limits placed on minors and where to draw the line for parental intervention. A 30 year old man is soley responsiable for all of his actions. A 13 girl old girls parents are still liable for many of hers.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Ah, but anyone who refuses to have basic medical checkups cannot be said to be truly "responsible," for himself. And after all, we as a society must then pay for their care, when they fall ill--to say nothing of the damage that they do to their employers and their families.

It's completely irresponsible: no man should have the right to control his own body, if it means the right to a kind of self-murder. Life is precious, and must be protected.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

If you don't mind me asking, what does this have to do with the issue being discussed? A minor under the age of 18 and a man over 30 isn't a very good comparison. The main issue is the limits placed on minors and where to draw the line for parental intervention. A 30 year old man is soley responsiable for all of his actions. A 13 girl old girls parents are still liable for many of hers.

Two things - one, it's about being able to have the final say in what happens to one's own body. Period. Two - the 13-year-old girl in question may have made a decision or taken an action actively to have sex - or she may have been raped. Whenever people talk about abortion, there is a return to a hellfire-and-brimstone "you did the crime, you do the time!" (I'm not trying to imply that you are saying that, Deuce.) Sometimes (no, not all the time, but sometimes) what happened was not a result of an active choice by the young girl.

I've said it before, I'll say it again - most young women I know would, even if scared, go running to their parents (or a close relative, etc.) if they found out that they were pregnant, regardless. it's scary and they go to help. We have to worry, however, about the young girls in "less than optimal" homes, who face serious punshment (physical abuse, homelessness) if they turn to their guardians for "help" in a case like this.

 

[raedyn]

Boys dont have to go through a medical procedure (all of which have risk) without notifying their parents who would have to foot the bill for any emergency medical costs that could arise....

Having a (legal) abortion is about nine times safer than carrying a pregnancy to term.
See:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_fact1.htm#risks
These numbers come from Centers for Disesase Control studies. That's a pretty reiable and trusted source.

 

[raedyn]

I agree that the decision should ultimately be made by the girl, but the choice should be made for the right reasons.

So what are the "right" reasons? Why do YOU get to decide what the right reasons are?

Maybe a counseling session with an unbiased health representative would allow the girl to make a decsion that is best for her. Many of these girls will need guidance to do the proper thing.

You can't get a legal abortion with out counselling sessions & referrals to social workers beforehand, and there's a mandatory waiting period (at least in Canada -- I can't imagine the US would be less stringent).

 

[Deuce]

So what are the "right" reasons? Why do YOU get to decide what the right reasons are?

The "right" reasons are those identified by the individual in question. I never said that I get to decide what the "right" reasons are. I merely stated my opinion on what a wrong reason is, i.e. fear of disappointing parents, getting grounded, etc. Do think getting an abortion based only on fear is the "right" reason? I think other factors should be evaluated. A judgement based only on fear may cause some major issues or regret down the road. If a person doesn't have to hide the fact that they're pregnant (from their parents), I think they will make a better thought-out choice that they may never regret. Maybe the parents won't agree with their daughters choice, but they should still know about it.

 

[raedyn]

I believe it is up to the pregnant person to decide if they can continue with the pregnancy or not. Their reasoning for that choice is none of anyone's business. I agree that it can be a difficult choice, but I also recognize that there are women that will have the abortion and be absolutely confident that was the right choice and never regret or question it. Equally, there are women who would have the baby no question and never look back.

Then there are times when a woman is not immediately 100% sure what she wants to do, or sometimes a woman feels completely distraught and upset and confused. If that woman goes to contact Planned Parenthood or an abortion clinic, they give her counselling, refer her to social worker, and then send her home with a fat packet of reading material about adoption, parenting, the acutal procedure and risks involved, the words of women who have had abortions and how they felt about it afterwards, and questionarries and charts etc for the woman to record her own thoughts on the topic. It's not like a woman walks in, says "gimme an abortion" and is sent out on the street 10 minutes later de-pregnated.

 

[Ray]

After all, we as a society can no longer afford to pay for men who're irresponsible about fundamental checkups; what's more, it's immoral of men to keep risking their lives when there are simple tests available.

If this is sacarstic, then it illustrates a dichotomy in your opinions. On the one hand, society shouldn't limit our freedom to choose because of cost; on the other hand you've pointed out the great cost to society to keep Terry Schiavo {needlessly} alive. If I've misinterpreted, then I apologize in advance.

However, you probably agree that society does {and should} have a say in what we can {legally} do. The limits that society allow do ebb and flow with time; sometimes more lenient, sometimes more restrictive.

 

[raedyn]

Interesting point to consider:

By age 45, 2 in 5 American women have had at least one abortion.

You know people that have had abortions.

 

[ginshun]

So a 35 year old man not getting a prostate exam is now an equivellant situation to a 14 year old girl getting an abortion without telling her parents?

What world do you live in?



Bottom line in my mind is that according to the law, kids are a ward of there parents or gaurdians untill they are 18. To me, this means that the parents should be involved in all major decisions for that child. Period. If that is not the case, then change the age at which a person seises to be a minor to 14. If a 14 year old can decide that she needs an opperation whithout telling here parents, then let him/her vote, drive, buy a gun, and be in a porno too. While your're at it take statutory rape off the books too. If she can decide whether or not to have an abortion, then why not let her decide to have sex with a 35 year old too? As long as it is her decision, then it should be fine right?

IMO the decision to get an abortion or not requires just as much (if not more) maturity and reasoning ability as any of the other things mentioned, so if a child can be considered able to make that decision, then why not the rest?

I still haven't heard a good reason as to why parental consent should be required for a 16 to get her appendix taken out, but not to get her baby taken out.