Combat hapkido system vs. traditional hapkido systems

[Drac]

We practice low, mid, and high kicks. We practice punching: straight reverse, jabs, hooks, uppercuts, hammer fists, and back-fists, and we practice other hand strikes as well: knife hand, spear hand, ridge hand, and palm strikes.We practice open handed blocks: palm and knife hand, all in a circular fashion.

As do we with exceptions. We dont kick above the waist and we prefer the verticle punch..

Our hoshinsul involves defenses against strikes, defense against same side single hand grabs, cross single hand grabs, two hands grabbing one hand, both hands grabbing both hands, clothing grabs, hugs, and all of the above from behind, as well as defending from a prone position.

See we do the same thing..Its in the belt rank requirments..Defenses from a prone position sounds good..We just introduced defenses from a seated position

Some of our entries involve strikes, though we tend to focus more on redirecting the attack, grabbing, and applying either a lock or a throw. We do free sparring and apply the techniques against resisting opponents.

Ditto for us..We do the "monkey-in-the-middle" even our newest students take their turn in the middle..They are attacked slower which give me or Master Steve the time to spot the fatal beginners errors and correct them before they become a habit..

At first dan, we learn defenses against knifes and guns and defense against two attackers.

At third dan cane defense techniques are added and defense against four attackers is taught..

We start defenses against knives and guns when they reach Yellow Belt.The defenses against 2 attackers is when Master Steve feels they are ready for it...We dont teach cane because I am not that good at it.





Daniel[/quote]

 

[Haakon]

Okay, so back to the topic at hand.

I have mad the following observations based on the posts of CHKD practitioners, at least one person who has some of the videos, and the first hand conversation with GMP:

1. That CHKD does contain, on some level, the core hapkido principles of hwa, won, and yu.

2. That CHKD, like HKD, has strikes, but they are utilized to a greater degree than they apparently are in many other HKD kwans.

3. That the strikes in question are geared towards practical use and not towards what is generally considered more on the arty side (such as high kicks, spinning kicks, etc.)

4. That CHKD is a small circle HKD, something that the system is not alone in.

5. That CHKD focuses on close quarters combat and self defense. A good reason for the choice of name that does not imply anything about other systems.

6. That the founder himself stated explicitly that it is hapkido.

7. CHKD falls somewhere in between teh d3adly and the more flowery Aikido like HKD or more aerobic/exhibition hapkido styles in terms of its intent and content. It is designed to keep you alive, but is not geared towards generation of a body count.

Thoughts?

Daniel

Looks like a fair, accurate, summary to me. I train in a traditional HKD style, but I'd go to a CHKD seminar if/when they have one in the Seattle area.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

An update on my GMP conversation: He had promised to send me materials. True to his word, they arrived over the weekend.

I have not had a chance to peruse them, but intend to do so tonight.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

As do we with exceptions. We dont kick above the waist and we prefer the verticle punch.

We teach the typical rotating punch. We train in all three ranges of kicks, mainly because high kicks promote flexibility and range. Also, while I am not a proponent of high kicks in SD, they can have application under the right conditions.

See we do the same thing..Its in the belt rank requirments..Defenses from a prone position sounds good..We just introduced defenses from a seated position

Is that something that you introduced in your school on your own or part of CHKD? Or both?

Ditto for us..We do the "monkey-in-the-middle" even our newest students take their turn in the middle..They are attacked slower which give me or Master Steve the time to spot the fatal beginners errors and correct them before they become a habit..

Love the monkey in the middle drill.

We start defenses against knives and guns when they reach Yellow Belt. The defenses against 2 attackers is when Master Steve feels they are ready for it...We dont teach cane because I am not that good at it.

I'm still not sure where I stand on the 'when' of weapon defenses. I have heard good cases for introducing weapon defenses early and late.

So far, trappings and nomenclature aside, I have yet to see anything that strikes me as radically different from "traditional" Everything that both GMP and yourself and Hollywood described would fall into what is considered "traditional" hapkido.

Now, my personal exposure to CHKD is not enough for me to say that with any authority, so if that is not the case, I am curious as to what constitutes the difference. Not interested in saying that they are good or bad, just trying to become more educated on the subject and to promote an educated discussion. I think that the system deserves that, given how readily some people jump to attack it.

Daniel

 

[terrylamar]

...

The videos do not teach breakfalls or rolls. They just list them as a requirement for attaining a certain belt. I believe off the top of my head you need these for the yellow belt.

forward roll
backward roll
side breakfall

It seems beyond odd to me that any 'video learning' system could leave out some very fundamental techniques that are absolutely needed before one could learn throws or take downs.

...

The CH DVD just states that you should learn these in person from a CH instructor. Well and good, but that seems to indicate to me that in fact the video learning program is not meant to be the sole source of instruction, which in the end is probably a very good thing.

I am a little late to this discussion, but let me put in my two cents worth. I have not read this entire thread yet and these question may have been addressed.

There have been several videos for Combat Hapkido. I don't know the complete history, but I have VCR's I bought in the early 90's, the may have been produced as early as the late 80's. The most current are the HD DVD's released two or three years ago.

These DVD's do have the required falls demonstrated my Master Rivas. I don't remember if the earlier VCR's did or not, I don't even have a VCR player anymore. It might be interesting to go back and review them again to see the various changes in the system over a 10 year period.

Each individual instructor will emphasize falls according to his interest. Nevertheless, demonstrated proficiencies are required for advancement. Even if your instructor is lax in his instruction, soon or later, you will have to learn them.

When I had my school I did empasize them and they were practiced each class to some degree and on occaisions the majority of the class was spent on the required falls as wells as others I learned in a Traditional Hapkido School.

 

[terrylamar]

Other than teaching gun defense as opposed to, say, sword defense, I do not see what is more effective about it as compared martial arts of the 1800's and prior. Back then, a knife was still a knife, and a punch was still a punch, no?

Combat Hapkido has taken a complete Tradidional Hapkido System and parred down the 5,000(?) techniques to a fewer, more applicable techniques to the modern world. It also has, in some instances, gone outside of Hapkido and included effective techniques from other Martial Arts Systems.

One other question I'd like to add:
Does CH emphasize stretching to build flexibility?

No, Combat Hapkido does not emphasize stretching. Stretching is not included into the system. Each instructor will include stretching as he sees fit. In many cases Combat Hapkido is not taught as a stand alone system, but is added on to another system.

While Combat is a complete system each instructor is free to include techniques from other systems, but cannot take away from the core Combat System.

 

[terrylamar]

Found a video of CHKD at a base level. Some may never take it farther then this.

As a CHKD student and instructor I have several problems with this. There is no "attitude" shown by either attacker or defender. I taught and teach to actually make contact with your distractions. You fight like you train. Nothing is more distracting then NOT making contact and having them look at you while you figure out what to do next.

This is the beauty of the Combat Hapkido model. You, the instructor, are free and encouraged to add the realism as you see fit. The first DVD addresses this concept and then explains it will be omitted for brevity sakes. The demonstrators in the youtube tape are demonstrating the clinical techniques. Any competent instructor will include the realistic "attitude." Indeed, you will fight as you train, this is a well known concept in the Military as well as the Martial Arts.

 

[terrylamar]

Also how many of these teachers brought significant experience with them when they began studying CHKD?

As an example, I had over three years of training in jujutsu, judo, and karate before I began studying Kenpo, and I have trained the IKCA curriculum under in-person instructors since day one. The videos have always been a reference tool, not a stand alone learning program for me. I suspect there are a number of CHKD converts in a similar position. Even if someone relied primarily on seminars for hands on guidance, a background in traditional hapkido, jujutsu, or aikido would make it much easier to integrate the material taught on the videos without seeing an instructor every day.

Joel

I think this is true of any skill you learn during your life. Everyone brings their previous experiences with them and over time will keep certain techniques or discard them if found to be impractacle or ineffective.

My personal belief is that you should gain a proficiency in your base style and then you should explore other styles, including or descarding techniques, what works for you or doesn't, in your own personal skill set. I am not a purest.

 

[goingd]

Combat Hapkido has taken a complete Tradidional Hapkido System and parred down the 5,000(?) techniques to a fewer, more applicable techniques to the modern world. It also has, in some instances, gone outside of Hapkido and included effective techniques from other Martial Arts Systems.

You see, that is something I don't quite understand. I have never understood traditional Hapkido to consist of thousands of techniques - rather, it is really only a handful of techniques that are expanded upon with variations, adaptations and extensions. I can see a lot of what Combat Hapkido leaves out from traditional Hapkido, and some of it I can understand the reasoning behind the label of impracticality. However, there are a few basic techniques that I have not seen in Combat Hapkido (perhaps they simply have not been shown in any online videos) that, at least personally, I feel are very practical.

 

[Hollywood1340]

However, there are a few basic techniques that I have not seen in Combat Hapkido (perhaps they simply have not been shown in any online videos) that, at least personally, I feel are very practical.

Such as?

 

[terrylamar]

You see, that is something I don't quite understand. I have never understood traditional Hapkido to consist of thousands of techniques - rather, it is really only a handful of techniques that are expanded upon with variations, adaptations and extensions. I can see a lot of what Combat Hapkido leaves out from traditional Hapkido, and some of it I can understand the reasoning behind the label of impracticality. However, there are a few basic techniques that I have not seen in Combat Hapkido (perhaps they simply have not been shown in any online videos) that, at least personally, I feel are very practical.

Perhaps, if you describe the technique or link to an online video I will attempt to tell you if it is in the system or not. Not that I consider myself to be the authority on the subject. There are more experienced posters on this forum.

 

[terrylamar]

From Wikipedia:
"Combat Hapkido's focus means it has deleted some traditional Hapkido techniques which may be impractical for modern self-defense scenarios"

Description for the book, Combat Hapkido: The Martial Art for the Modern Warrior:
"Intending to bring a classical art into the modern world, this guidebook contains the wisdom and experience behind the art of combat hapkido."
"this manual discusses the evolution of hapkido into a modern art for self-defense"

It seems to me that it is being said, in fact, that CH is more suited for a modern society than traditional Hapkido. I simply struggle to see just how.

My personal opinion is that Combat Hapkido has a more direct approach as it does not teach thousands of techniques found in some traditional hapkido systems. You get to the more practical, effective techniques quicker.

If 100 techniques are taught, you can master them more quickly than if 5,000 are taught. I am not saying Combat Hapkido is better, just a more bare bones, yet complete system. In my opinion.

 

[terrylamar]

Unless someone from a traditional Hapkido discipline logs on here and talks about their training we have nothing to compair it to ...

I have experience in both a traditional Hapkido system and Combat Hapkido. I have Black Belts in both. I don't see much of a difference in either. Having said that, I was the instructor in Combat Hapkido and alot of my teaching style came from my traditional Hapkido experience.

Combat Hapkido gives you a skeleton of core techniques and the instructor is free to flesh out the curriculum, as he sees fit, as long as the core concept are taught.

 

[terrylamar]

Well, I just finished this thread and I am pleasantly suprised how this thread turned out. It is amazing what an open mind and questions to the sourcs will clear up a lot of misconceptions.

Thank you, Daniel Sullivan, for starting this thread and looking for the truth, even from the source, himself. What a novel idea.

 

[goingd]

Honestly, I was unable to find three main techniques I had in mind. I really don't think I can describe them too well, but I will post them if I eventually find them.

 

[goingd]

My personal opinion is that Combat Hapkido has a more direct approach as it does not teach thousands of techniques found in some traditional hapkido systems. You get to the more practical, effective techniques quicker.

If 100 techniques are taught, you can master them more quickly than if 5,000 are taught. I am not saying Combat Hapkido is better, just a more bare bones, yet complete system. In my opinion.

Again, that is something I simply just do not see. This may be very true as compared to some traditional Hapkido schools, but certainly not all, nor do I think most. I just have a hard time seeing how CH is supposed to have a smaller selection of techniques. Again, I understand that at the core it does not focus on forms, breathing techniques, and high kicks. But, other than the breathing, I don't see much of a difference as most Hapkido systems don't focus on forms, and many don't focus on high kicks. I find it confusing, that's all.

 

[Hollywood1340]

Honestly, I was unable to find three main techniques I had in mind. I really don't think I can describe them too well, but I will post them if I eventually find them.

So we have basics that can't be explained. Prehaps a video? If they are as common as you believe we may just know what you're talking about.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I have experience in both a traditional Hapkido system and Combat Hapkido. I have Black Belts in both. I don't see much of a difference in either. Having said that, I was the instructor in Combat Hapkido and alot of my teaching style came from my traditional Hapkido experience.

My impressions based on what GMP said on the phone and the material he sent me is the same. What was laid out in the material he sent looked, quite honestly, fairly, well.... traditional.

I will respond with a detailed post when I have the material in front of me.

Daniel

 

[Hollywood1340]

My impressions based on what GMP said on the phone and the material he sent me is the same. What was laid out in the material he sent looked, quite honestly, fairly, well.... traditional.

I will respond with a detailed post when I have the material in front of me.

Daniel

We've been saying this for years. Only takes the time to investigate to find out it. Good on ya Daniel!

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

We've been saying this for years. Only takes the time to investigate to find out it. Good on ya Daniel!

Thanks!

That was actually prompted me to start this thread. I saw that when the detractors were pressed about what aspects of the curriculum they disliked or considered flawed, none of the could answer and virtually all of them said that they did not know the curriculum to any degree.

Criticisms seemed to be confined to personal opinions of GMP and the option of distance learning, neither of which really has anything to do with the system.

Daniel