Coach Sonnon tapes and Systema?

[NYCRonin]

Wow!
The indian club was a staple of the early 20th century gyms around the world...even saw them as a child in the old Vic Tannys Gym (in Brooklyn - before it 'evolved' into Jack lalanne gyms then int Ballys gyms) - nothing new - yet re-born with new materials...a 20 lb club is now smaller than the old ones.

BUT -on a larger note- I am sensing a 'disturbance in the force' from 'tichok'...and to him I say:
"Thats two".

Your revue of ALL your posts is beginning to reveal an 'agenda' that even a child could see.

There are far better ways to seek publicity for a cause ... think about it.

PLEASE, dont play this forum as a bunch of 'unknowing' dolts.
AND - your accent is less congruent than a full 'russian' one is.

Your profile, and web signature; reveals more than you are stating. BUT -it does reveal an agenda - dont make us 'out' you, publically.

"Thats two". And the joke? Is very american...dont let it be on you!

 

[ABN]

NYCRonin,
Hapki junior? It is the same time of year.

 

[theformerone]

Oak Bo,

You call Coach Sonnon a thief, "ripping off" the ideas of others, packaging and selling it off as his own. Yet, you would never buy a thing from "that guy." If you actually knew anything about Coach Sonnon, you would know he recognizes Indian Clubs, Fulcrum Bells, Sledghammers, Old-Time Japanese strength devises, etc., as a form of "Inspiration" for the modern-day Clubbell, along with other methods. He states in his "Clubbell Training for Circular Strength" book that Circular Strength training has been around for hundreds of years and he did not invent this method, but "renovated" it and developed it upon his philosophy of strength.

Further more, to say that the methods of training for combat resembles Tai Chi, Qigong, and other Oriental martial arts, is just that, a resemblance. I can say a kick looks like a thai kick, or TKD round kick, or a Savate kick, etc. The reason why you may imply something, is because your experience is limited to those arts and you categorize movements as such. Bruce Lee once said something to the affect that after studying martial art for some time scientifically he relalized, "A punch is not a punch, it is just a punch. A kick is not a kick, it is just a kick." Think on that for a while.

So before you go around insulting people, criticizing others, and accusing someone of fraud, get your facts first, do the research, then dare to make such statements.

FYI: Coach Sonnon and RMAX productions have patented, trademarked and copyrighted, etc. their material to stop people from "stealing" from their blood , sweat, and tears.

Tichok,

I can appreciate your sense of national pride, or whatever idea it is you may be trying to push on those reading this thread, and others that you have commented on. Know this about Coach Sonnon and RMAX. From my dealings with them, others in the organization and a certified ROSS instructor, no one is claiming to be a "master." And as RachelK said, it is all relative anyways. The phrase that has stuck with me when describing those folks who are more experienced then me, is just that. They just suck a little less than I do.

So both of you, Oak Bo and Tichok, I sincerely hope you find what you are looking for in life. And for the sake of argument, stop instigating a fight, "you might bite off more than you can chew." (I can't exactly place the ethnic/cultural origin of that saying, possibly Modern-American?...sorry I had to)

Regards,

Jason B.

 

[WillFightForBeer]

Tichok. You aren't Russian, and that has become quite apparent. Take away the fake accent, speak in normal english, tell us who you are (or who you want us to think you are), and then we can talk. Until then, there's a pile of ******** between us that I refuse to cross.

-Ilya

 

[erich]

Sonnon's products are very good - doesn't matter to me if they are not completely original, but his marketing methods are obnoxious.

Speaking of marketing methods I suspect that Tichok may be on the RMAX pay roll.

He appeared out of nowhere on a couple of sites ( I have seen Tichok at bullshido & martialtalk) at the same time with the identical unprovoked message. Even when threads have wandered far from that topic I have yet to see a post of his that does not mention Sonnon and how well respected his material is for one of unpure blood.

 

[Jay Bell]

Speaking of marketing methods I suspect that Tichok may be on the RMAX pay roll.

Egad man! Tarnish the thought!

 

[erich]

oops - did I state the obvious?

 

[WillFightForBeer]

Erich, I can't agree more. However, I think that he may be a little closer to the heart of RMAX than you would think. Perhaps a LOT closer.

He also appears as Shinobi, Jimmy Lee, and a couple other names. He's just looking to provoke discussion about HIS material. No such thing as bad publicity, eh?

And yes, I fully understand that I am putting my RMAX status on the line by saying what I said, but I'm not going to ignore the BS.

-Ilya

 

[Oak Bo]

Oak Bo,So before you go around insulting people, criticizing others, and accusing someone of fraud, get your facts first, do the research, then dare to make such statements.

FYI: Coach Sonnon and RMAX productions have patented, trademarked and copyrighted, etc. their material to stop people from "stealing" from their blood , sweat, and tears.

Regards,

Jason B.

I have done the research, what he's doing is nothing new at all.
Oh wait! His Olympic sport of clubbell lifting is

I don't really care what he's patented, trademarked or copyrighted, hell anyone can do that.
He wants to come across as some new age guru but really only comes across as a huckster.

But if you like his stuff, cool with me
If it works for you great, have at it.
:asian:

 

[milosmalic]

I have never liked his work. Somehow this (multi)/(mega)/(full colour)/(ultra) marketing doesn't go together with state of mind of real free and inlightened master. His mind seems to be bounded with this, and in RMA there is no free body and movement without completely free mind. I don't see the way to mastery in RMA with thinking about colouring some old product and applying for a patent.

This is just my feeling. Nevertheless I really respect his work and achievements. I see him as thorought and laborious sports worker which takes care of every important detail.

Finally, in like 10 years I can imagine results of his work like he could end up with students better than him in RMA, just if there would come up somebody with another state of mind - modest, simple in positive way and turned to wider dimensions of life than pure bussines. And of course if SS allows that to happen. Because remember, he is overprotective about his bussines and patents.

 

[mscroggins]

I have never liked his work. Somehow this (multi)/(mega)/(full colour)/(ultra) marketing doesn't go together with state of mind of real free and inlightened master. His mind seems to be bounded with this, and in RMA there is no free body and movement without completely free mind. I don't see the way to mastery in RMA with thinking about colouring some old product and applying for a patent.

My 6 year old cousin does this. The other day we were talking about a tree in his yard, and he insisted we call it a "klike" (i as in bike) and not a tree. I tried to explain to him that simply renaming things doesn't make them new or different, but he insisted on "klike". I think he'll grow out of it.....

 

[Furtry]

My 6 year old cousin does this. The other day we were talking about a tree in his yard, and he insisted we call it a "klike" (i as in bike) and not a tree. I tried to explain to him that simply renaming things doesn't make them new or different, but he insisted on "klike". I think he'll grow out of it.....

LMAO!!!

 

[ABN]

You've got a point, telling people we decorated our Christmas klike doesn't have quite the same ring to it.

 

[milosmalic]

My 6 year old cousin does this. The other day we were talking about a tree in his yard, and he insisted we call it a "klike" (i as in bike) and not a tree. I tried to explain to him that simply renaming things doesn't make them new or different, but he insisted on "klike". I think he'll grow out of it.....

Is he good at climbing? Is he better than other kids? Does calling the tree klike inspire him to climb biomechanically correct? If such things are true that could mean that he has authenthic way of seeing things.

But if he does that to rip you for money, and he knows that the tree is the same no matter the name - then he is a ...? Again I am out of proper english words.

 

[mscroggins]

I hate to go into family politics, but since you asked Mr. milosmailc I might as well share the story with you.

My cousin came to visit late last summer around the time of the annual mass tree climbing festival. I live in a rural area and most people here make a living working with trees or vines, be it pruning, harvesting, growing, packing, planting or what have you. There is a lot of collected tree knowledge in this area and it is on display in some of our festivals and traditional dances. For example, at the annual winter festival you might see a plum pruning dance and a peach packing dance side by side. Sharing our collected knowledge with each other is important and we have developed a fluid and spontaneous body of tree work, of which climbing is one small part.

Needless to say, my cousin was impressed with our tree climbing knowledge and training methods. He was eager to learn. So, being a proud tree climber I taught him all I knew about climbing trees. I taught him to free his mind and let his body find a route up the tree, not to think about any particular movement, how to screw his arms into and out of his shoulders to create torque, how to scoop large branches, how to make a wave motion to lift himself from branch to branch, how to relax his body and only tense the parts needed to climb, how to let the tree dictate his breath so his mind wasn't clouded by fear, and most importantly to let his movements flow into each other without pause or break. He was pretty good when he left.

Imagine my chagrin when he showed up this summer and told me about "klikeing". Apparently, when he got back to school he started teaching his classmates to "klike" by breaking down the movements I taught him into small units and assigning them latinate names. He even made instructional videos without referencing his tree climbing education - ouch that hurt my feelings. I was appalled and told him he had missed the open and loving spirit of tree climbing, but he would have none of it and insisted everyone call him the "klikeing" coach, and that the people in his town demanded new and flashy "klikeing" materials.

I don't want to come down to hard on him because he is only 6, and next summer he might have a new persective. But, when I saw him at Thanksgiving he had plans to start a website and was trying to crack the lucrative golfing market. The kid is a bit of a huckster....

 

[WillFightForBeer]

Very good one, Senor Scroggins.

Ironic though, I've been kicked out of the RMAX community for what's been said in this thread.
But do you know what that means? I'm free. Hell ****ing yeah.

-Ilya

 

[the system]

People closer to Russian soul can learn more deeper Russian-Style. Farther then shallow study

You know if study Mr. Scott Sonnon style then it not Mr. Vladimir Vasiliev style. Mr. Scott Sonnon style is not Russian-Style. You dilute Systema. People only need pure source from true Russian master. No other thing need in life.

isvanichyei but i have been studying the history of so called systema vladmire or however its spelled "not good with spelling do to my study of programming" is a fraud copying traditional russian system from true warriors and adding a bunch of bullshido that is very dangerouse to try in real world situations i.e. from his improvised weapons course throwing a hat at a man holding a gun to distract them is just gunna get you killed now im not saying all the stuff in it is unuseful i like the body mechanics of the ballistic punch but it is true he is a fake while scott sonnon trained with the people that this so called master has claimed to be i have many friends from russia whom have never heard of vladmiere of mikhial ryabko but have studied with the trainers that scott trained with at universaties and in the military if u want further prrof just look up the mikhial ryabko "beyond physical psychic fighting" wanna be master roshi i dare you to try that with even on of my lowest level students id give him my school if he could move one of my training pads a thousandth of an inch with it with this adue he is fake but there are a lot of true rmas and by the way the first word in russian means excuse me

 

[RachelK]

isvanichyei but i have been studying the history of so called systema vladmire or however its spelled "not good with spelling do to my study of programming" is a fraud copying traditional russian system from true warriors and adding a bunch of bullshido that is very dangerouse to try in real world situations i.e. from his improvised weapons course throwing a hat at a man holding a gun to distract them is just gunna get you killed now im not saying all the stuff in it is unuseful i like the body mechanics of the ballistic punch but it is true he is a fake while scott sonnon trained with the people that this so called master has claimed to be i have many friends from russia whom have never heard of vladmiere of mikhial ryabko but have studied with the trainers that scott trained with at universaties and in the military if u want further prrof just look up the mikhial ryabko "beyond physical psychic fighting" wanna be master roshi i dare you to try that with even on of my lowest level students id give him my school if he could move one of my training pads a thousandth of an inch with it with this adue he is fake but there are a lot of true rmas and by the way the first word in russian means excuse me

I started this thread more than eight years ago before I began martial arts classes, and I'm sorry it's become nothing more than a vehicle to sustain the same tired old RMA argument. I never intended any martial style or instructor to be discredited on this thread; I was a beginner back then and merely curious about the training on the Sonnon videos as a solo exercise tape. That's all. I apologoize that it's become so contentious but perhaps not too late to get it back to the main topic of conditioning and training?

 

[Taiji Girevik]

Hard to say and doesn't really matter... I trained the Hulei "Thunder Style" Zhaobao Taiji methods with Tim Cartmell and it has the same "wave punch" training drills as used in the more modern Systema. There is a lot of cross-over between so many styles. Even Scott Sonnon and Pavel Tsatsouline acknowledge that Systema was most likely influenced by traditional Chinese martial arts and especially Taiji