Coach Sonnon tapes and Systema?

[RachelK]

Hello,
I have no martial arts experience, but I became fascinated with Systema after reading this article in the Village Voice (in which Mr. Wheeler is quoted): http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0338/bastidas.php
I've been in physical therapy for four months for minor kneecap dislocation and "runner's knee," but I really wanted to try Systema, so I taped my kneecap in place and went to the recent Martin Wheeler seminar at Fighthouse in NYC. I told Mr. Wheeler of my injury before the seminar. My kneecap did eventually crack out of its socket after about three hours, but none of the excercises were too rough for me, although some were too hard--the pushups and the leg lifts, but the breathing patterns during these exercises were both relaxing and invigorating. The sparring had a really good vibe, I enjoyed it immensely, especially when partnered with the experienced Systema-ists. Also my physical therapist noted an improvement in my balance after the seminar. I was able to stand on one leg on the trampoline and catch a 20-pound ball without flailing around, as I had been previously. The way Mr. Wheeler encouraged us to stand has some similarities to English horseback riding, with the heel and shoulder in a straight line, hips tilted slightly forward, back straight, not arched, so that rider is seated on the triangle between the seat bone and the pelvic bones. I spent many years horseback riding, and this position feels natural to me. In fact the day after the seminar, I was sore in the same places I would have been after a long ride.
I hope to sign up for Systema classes once my physical therapy sessions are completed.
Meanwhile, since I found the seminar excercises challenging, but not painful, I am thinking about purchasing one of Coach Sonnon's tapes for home conditioning. When my physical therapy is finished, I would like to study Systema. Could someone advise me as to whether the Sonnon tapes are compatible with Systema? And which of the series would you recommend for someone who intends to study Systema? I was considering Warrior Wellness, as it seems to target joint mobility, but is it a workout per se or a conceptual tape? Has anyone on this forum seen Warrior Wellness? My physical therapist has given the go-ahead to step up my current workout, so I am looking for a workout or excercise tape. I know that there have been some past postings on the Sonnon tapes, and I've read them all, and the reviews on Phil Elmore's site, but if any Systema-ists or other martial artists have additional suggestions or thoughts about the tapes, I'd be so grateful.
Thanks in advance for your help,
Rachel

 

[Mark Jakabcsin]

Rachel,
I haven't specifically seen the the Warrior Wellness series, although I own a few of Coach Sonnon's tapes and books and think very highly of them. Your question seems to have two different parts, 1) what will help me learn Systema before I can start classes and 2) what will help me rehab my knee?

The second one first. Always go with what your doctor says, but it is probably worthwhile checking out another Russian, Pavel Tsatsouline, and his works titled 'Super Joints'. Keep in mind this is general information, for specific information as it regards to you and your rehab check with your doctor/PT.

As for general body conditioning in preparation for starting Systema, Vlad has several options. The first is the commericially available NYC 2001 Seminars tape. The first 3rd or so of the tape is all conditioning and exercises. Vlad also has two in house videos that you might be able to purchase if you call direct and talk to Valerie. These are titled 'Confidence & Health The Russian Excercises' and 'Fitness & Combat The Russian Excercises'. Both good tapes.

In my opinion Coach Sonnon has many good tapes that would also help. I personally like the 'Be Breathed' video. My exposure to his other work is limited to non-exsistant (except Clubbells) but I expect it is of high quality. Hopefully others with more specific info will chime in. Take care.

mark j.

 

[Kempo Guy]

The Warrior Wellness (WW) series by Scott Sonnon is a program for joint health. It is set us as a "follow along" type tape, which is a divergence from Coach Sonnon's other tapes (with the exeption of Be Breathed perhaps). It's a great tape series for regaining ROM (range of motion) in all joints.


The following is a reply I made on another thread (on a different board) where someone was inquiring about WW, perhaps it's relevant to your question:

"I think it's very important to understand that Warrior Wellness series are not workout programs in the traditional sense, i.e. it does not show you calisthenics exercises, nor traditional strength and conditioning routines and such. If you are looking for these types of publications I urge people to look at Pavel or Scrapper's material.

This series is about "joint health" (increasing your ROM), dynamic relaxation, flexibility and strength. These tapes are "follow-along" type of tapes, which is a deviation from Coach Sonnon's usual material (with the exception of Be Breathed). Much of the material has been taken out of Zdorovye series, but put into a 'coherent' series of exercises, which builds progressively from the first tape through the third. To be honest, after viewing these tapes my understanding of how to use Coach Sonnon's other material became much clearer.

Tape one start off with pretty basic material to recover your ROM. It starts with neck exercises, then to shoulders, elbows, wrists, fingers, chest, spine... you get the idea. Tape two and three becomes increasingly more sophisticated in it's movement (patterns) and I would say that most people would probably not get to these two tapes unless they've really internalized the material on tape one by daily practice. All of these exercises carry over to Coach Sonnon's other material (fisticuffs, shockability etc.)

FWIW, I used WW tape 1 for about four months of almost daily practice before moving on to tape 2. In these four months I recovered near full mobility in my shoulders (I've had chronic injuries in them for years). I use the WW material as a supplement to my other conditioning (such as Kettlebells, bodyweight workouts etc.) as they are not intended to be used in place of them.

I am a big supporter of Coach Sonnon's material and own quite a few of his tapes, including Zdorovye, Warrior Wellness, Maximology as well as his more fighting focused tapes such as fisticuffs, grappler's toolbox and shockability. There's really too much material on each tape for an individual to absorb and requires diligent study of a few of the exercises for probably a few months for it to have any value. I do know that GTB, Fisticuffs and Shockability series have had a big impact on my fighting ability and have aided in greater understanding of movement principles, breathing and flow-state performance. If you are looking for technique oriented instruction, I would NOT recommend these tapes."

Other work by Coach Sonnon that may be relevant to Systema is his series Arthrokinetics and Fisticuffs. They are both great series.

KG

 

[RachelK]

Thanks, Mark and KenpoGuy, for your thoughtful replies. I think I'll try the V. Vasiliev NYC Seminar tape first, although I am also very interested in Sonnon's "Circular Training" and ROM excercises, but I enjoy watching Systema-ists and would love to see more than the few minutes' worth in the video clips I have downloaded (from communities.msn.com/RMAHamilton). The Seminar tape sounds like it would be good for both conditioning and also watching Mr. Vasiliev teach, which is always a treat. Of course if money were no object I'd try the Warrior Wellness tape as well, but perhaps next paycheck!
My ultimate goal is to take Systema classes. I have a friend who has become interested in Systema as well (probably because I have been talking about it continously since I read The Russian System Guidebook--osmosis, I guess!) and so we'll be watching the tape together and perhaps I'll post a "newbie's review" of it.
Thanks again and *Vsego nailuchshego* (All the best),
Rachel

 

[Brian King]

RKXYZ
I have most of the ROSS tapes and all of Vladimir's tapes. I enjoy them all. I don't think that you can go wrong. But all the video watching in the world is never as good as hands on training. This is very true in the RMA's.

Your profile doesn't list a location but try to find someone to train with. There are K-sys, Ross and The System people all over.

Good luck in your training. Also once you get your video how bout a review? Your views would be welcomed and appreciated.

It is funny that you mention horse back riding. There once was a thread on a board (now lost) seeking training advice for extra training outside of the stuff done doing RMA. The two main answers dancing and horseback riding.

See you on the mat soon
Friends
Brian

 

[RachelK]

Hi Brian,
I am in New York City, and there are several instructors listed for this area on RussianMartialArt.com. I would like to study Systema at Fighthouse because I felt comfortable at the seminar there, and I am a shy person who does not usually feel comfortable in large groups, but Fighthouse had a really relaxed and friendly vibe. My mother, who was at the seminar with me, would like to take Systema classes also, but the schedule at Fighthouse is not convenient for her, since she works one Saturday a month, and she says the 8 PM classes are too late for her...I am trying to talk her into an 8 PM class once per week, though, but we're still sort of negotiating about that (my take is that I need some time after work to eat dinner and change so 8 is perfect for me, but she'd rather go straight from work and eat dinner afteward). Also she is trying to talk my brother into taking classes with us. But until she and my bro figure all that out, I have been practicing with my friend/excercise partner, we went down to the park yesterday to practice rolling, falling down, and getting up again quickly. He's so relaxed, totally unafraid of the ground, I hope to learn a little about that from him. We'll be watching the NYC Seminar tape together when it arrives and I will certainly post a newbie's review here and at the RMAForum board. But I agree with you that training with an instructor is the best way to learn and I hope to sign up for classes soon.
Aside from the posture of horseback riding, which I think has some similarities to Systema, it's also a very sensitive sport. Horses are flighty, they have excellent long-range vision, but they also have a blind spot right in front of them because their heads are flat, like fishes, and they tend to run from all perceived threats, which can be alarming to the rider (especially when some of these "threats" are things like garbage cans, soccer balls, or puddles!). Like most animals (including humans), they sense a person's emotional state with uncanny accuracy, and if the rider is not relaxed and at the same time, very aware of surroundings as well as the animal's reactions, he or she might get hurt. I used to ride on the street to get to the bridle path and if there was one thing on someone's porch that hadn't been there the day before, I had to notice it before the horse so I could urge him to walk past it without fear. If the horse noticed it first, he'd "spook and bolt," take me by surprise, and risk killing us both in traffic. I think this relaxed/aware state of riding on the street is similar to the feeling I had at the seminar after the conditioning and breathing excercises.
If any NY'ers want to try horseback riding, I suggest Kensington Stables near Prospect Park, Brooklyn, where a guide will take you out in the park for about $20 an hour.
Thanks everyone for your advice and NYCRonin, if you are reading this, thank you for the link to RussianMartialArt.org, I bookmarked it, and rusanyc.com also (your mailbox is full so I could not reply to the message you sent to my Yahoo account).
Best,
Rachel

 

[NYCRonin]

Rachel,
you are welcome for the info. - hope that the info. at my groups site is useful to you.
My group is sort of the 'wild bunch' of the NY Systema family. Training out of doors year round - regardless of weather - is not for everyone, I know. If you send me an e-address, I will see that you are placed on the mailing list for the more conventional, indoor seminars that will be scheduled in 2004. (I promise to clean out the in box)
Edgar (the Fighthouse systema instructor) is a good man and very knowledgeable. I am certain he will be able to take you as far as you wish to go in Systema. Between the 3 instructors of Systema in NYC, there is something for everyones tastes.
Our community in NYC, and elsewhere; is still quite small and tends to retain a friendly atmosphere. You never know who will drop in at a training session, perhaps we will meet at fighthouse one day.
Good luck with your studies.
Rob Green
PS - The Prospect Park stables? Not far from my home. I agree it is a good choice for horseback riding. The park is a beautiful place to ride through.

 

[tichok]

Yes. No. Mr. Scott Sonnon good programs. Yes. Mr. Scott Sonnon programs help you in your health. Warrior Wellness program now big deal with people teaching specialized chiropractic energetic work. Yes. It can help you with your martial art skill. But NO it can not help you become master Russian-Style. Look closely at Mr. Scott Sonnon movement http://www.circularstrengthmag.com/images/softworktrailer.wmv His movement very great for a foreigner but it lack specific Russian-Style flavor. If you practice Warrior Wellness you move like Mr. Scott Sonnon. You not move like Russian master. It is important difference. Am I right or am I right? I am right. Now look Mr. Vladimir Vasiliev http://www.systemauk.com/video/FDK.WMV He move same effective as Mr. Scott Sonnon but you see distinctive Russian-Style mastery. Yes, Mr. Scott Sonnon "home-grown" hero. Everybody love him. But you must understand that if you follow path Systema style then you must only walk path Systema style. Do you understand?

 

[RachelK]

It is a little more than a year since I posted the question that started that thread. I'm afraid that I no longer have the same question, because during the last year, so many of my questions have been answered by the kind folks within the Systema community. Since I posted the question about Sonnon's tapes, I have been studying Systema regularly with certified instructors.
I don't believe my original question ever mentioned an aspiration to become a master of the Russian style. This has never been my aspiration. I do not have such concrete goals for my training. To become proficient is an admirable goal, to become a master, not so much. Even the masters have their own teachers. Mastery of anything is relative.
The continous harping about foreigners and how Sonnon moves well "for a foreigner" does not commend you to me. Where do you draw the line with foreigners, now that there are so many former provinces of the Soviet Union? Poland was once part of the USSR, are they foreigners, or do they fall under the category of "Russians" capable of mastering Systema?
I do understand that there may be a language barrier, but I am not too sure of it. But maybe you just don't express yourself in words too well. In that case I hope we shall meet someday and you can illuminate me further, as clearly this forum is not your best avenue of communication.
You asked if I understand, no, I do not. I am free to watch Sonnon's tapes and still be a devoted student of the System; one need not cling to dogma to learn Systema. I am just a humble student, not one seeking to become a master. At the time I posted that message, I was seeking to recover joint mobility and strength. Many people recommend Sonnon and Tsalouline for this particular goal. Sonnon does not teach Systema and I would not try to learn Systema from his tapes. But there are many things in this world that have nothing to do with Systema, yet are still useful to those seeking knowledge. To everything there is a season. The world is plenty big enough for different styles to peacefully co-exist.
*Vsego nailuchshego* (best wishes),
Rachel

 

[tichok]

People closer to Russian soul can learn more deeper Russian-Style. Farther then shallow study.

You know if study Mr. Scott Sonnon style then it not Mr. Vladimir Vasiliev style. Mr. Scott Sonnon style is not Russian-Style. You dilute Systema. People only need pure source from true Russian master. No other thing need in life.

 

[NYCRonin]

LOL!
Tichok truly you have a skewed view of the gift that springs from RMA -- and you do seem to have quite an attitude - one that I would love for you to express with my friend and teacher, Mihail Ryabco present.
'You pollute Systema"?
The if that WERE true - then by extension, MR and VV are the source of this pollution. LOL - Shakespeare had it right!
"What fools these mortals be".

How dare you make such an empty statement?

You seem to have an agenda...and a problem with understanding what the mentioned masters teach.
OK, wave your flag, yet keep your statements respectful of the members of the forum.
As the old American joke goes - "Thats one"! Dont ask for an explanation about the joke - perhaps its too 'american' for you to ever understand...since you were not born with an 'american soul'.....LOL, that alone is a funny thing to write.

Still - "thats one".

 

[jellyman]

Deep russian master is speaking to us.

 

[Oak Bo]

Sonnon is one that likes to past out the Kool-aid.
I wouldn't buy a thing from that guy. Plus he rips off other peoples stuff and then say's he "invented" it.
:asian:

 

[tichok]

I do not understand "Kool-Aid". What is it you mean?

You are wrong. I never claim Mr. Scott Sonnon "rip off others". I say everytime Mr. Scott Sonnon create his own thing. It just not Russian-Style. Besides. If you never buy anything from "that guy" then how you know he "ripped off others." I never say bad things against Mr. Scott Sonnon. He has very great movement for foreigner and is distinguished coach and wrestler in Russia. He just not representative of Russian-Style. You "put words in my mouth."

 

[Oak Bo]

Tichok, I was answering the question of the post.
I wasn't talking to you, no offence was sent your way at all.

I have delt with the "Sonnonites" for a while now, believe me the stuff he's passing off as his is from somebody else.

 

[tichok]

Thank you. Please explain what is a Sonnonite and Kool-Aid. Please could you also be explaining what Mr. Scott Sonnon has "ripped off" from others. I like this phrase "ripped off." This is first I hear someone call Mr. Scott Sonnon a thief. You say you dealt with Mr. Scott Sonnon. Can you describe it please?

 

[Oak Bo]

Hi Tichok,

Kool-aid comment is something we refer to sometimes as a person who has a cult or cult like following. Sonnonite would be someone you would refer as a follower of his cult.
As far as the "rip off" stuff, the material he presents as his, he really got for another source or system. I don't know if you've ever seen his site, but the Clubbells he's selling as some new product for fitness has been around for at least a couple hundred years. They're called Indian clubs.

The other martial arts stuff he's got from the likes of TaiChi, Bagua, Xingyi for starters. Most of his material has been around for many, many years, just has been repackaged and renamed.

I would go with Vlads stuff as far as systema goes, that guy certainly knows his stuff.

 

[tichok]

Cult? This is strange term. I only understand as small part of big culture. Am I right? Where did you deal with these people? Did you study with one of Mr. Scott Sonnon students?

I read Clubbell book. He give long history on Indian Club and Persian and Russian. In English or Russian language I not find any longer history than Mr. Scott Sonnon book. I dont understand how steal if say create Clubbell. Mr. Scott Sonnon say he invent Clubbell design. Is this wrong? Did Mr. Scott Sonnon take Clubbell design from different person? You probably not know about book.

Can you please explain what steal from "TaiChi, Bagua, Xingyi" and how steal it? This I dont understand. From what I study Mr. Scott Sonnon style come from SAMBO and ROSS.

 

[Oak Bo]

Cult = a fad devotion to a person or person's group.

If you ever get a chance to see some of the indian clubs from long ago that were in the circus you'd see they'e pretty much the same thing only they're made from solid wood.

Taichi and the like are martial art systems from China, they have a lot of different flow drills, as well as balance, and body toughing. Other arts from the Orient have a lot of similar training too.

But if you enjoy his stuff, and you get a lot out of it, that's great!
I wish you continued success with it, and your training

 

[tichok]

I see Indian Club and none in mass Mr. Scott Sonnon make. I never see any Indian Club make in metal either. Wood decay and break. Car come in many type, but patent each distinct one. Did Mr. Scott Sonnon bring this type of training to mass attention. How that steal? If he public deny Indian Club lineage, could please direct me? I would like for my file on Mr. Scott Sonnon.
I dont understand how if similar things in Mr. Scott Sonnon style to Chinese Martial Art then he steal it from Chinese Martial Art. The same could say about Mr. Vladimir Vasiliev or Mr. Pavel Tsatsouline then. Do you have specific?
From definition all martial art styles and fitness styles such as Mr. John DuCane's "Dragondoor" are cult.