Chuck Norris and TKD

InfiniteLoop

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Charles Norris stationed in South Korea in 1958 doesn't even have white and yellow belt patterns if he decided to join General Chois outcast of Oh Do Kwan with the TaeKwonDo moniker.

That's what I call virtually indistinguishable......
 

dancingalone

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Some circles being THE ENTIRE UNITED STATES. Show me one guy referring to Jhoon Rhee as Tang Soo Do outside of that Japanese who is just doing it to provoke. It's not hard to google that Jhoon Rhee joined the unification

He was with General Choi for a short time, certainly not decades. I don't really think of him as part of the unification at all. He really wasn't an ITF/General Choi man, nor was he part of the group that ousted Choi and created the Kukkiwon.

By the way, you obviously don't know the history of the Chung Do Kwan. The founder of the Chung Do Kwan, Lee Won Kuk, was a Shotokan practitioner who later returned to Japan to live, even earning some considerable emnity from his fellow Koreans for it. GM Lee called his art as Tang Soo Do, literally the Korean way of saying the same characters as "karate". Jhoon Rhee would have been very used to hearing Chung Do Kwan style referred to as "Tang Soo Do", even if he used the name Tae Kwon Do later in the USA.

Edit: ah, never mind. Just saw the post where you acknowledged you're the poster Acronym. Wasting my time. Good night!
 

Earl Weiss

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Do you seriously believe that Chois branch in the 50s trained one or two Korean forms exclusively and no Japanese? That would be curious given that he based his entire forms on Shotokan, including black belt forms, simply adding a few aerials into the soup.
First and foremost there was no branch until 1955 or so. Secondly - that was the whole point - trash the Japanese connection.
 

InfiniteLoop

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First and foremost there was no branch until 1955 or so. Secondly - that was the whole point - trash the Japanese connection.

I didn't ask what he he did prior to 1955. He had 5 patterns in 1959. How do you trash the Japanese in the mid 50s with no patterns?

I ask again; what exactly do you think they did back then?
 

InfiniteLoop

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If Choi was set out to trash the Japanese connection, he didn't do a very good job.

The Chang Hon forms is a love letter to Japanese Karate. All Choi did was mix around move orders and add a few spin and jump kicks.
 

Earl Weiss

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I didn't ask what he he did prior to 1955. He had 5 patterns in 1959. How do you trash the Japanese in the mid 50s with no patterns?

I ask again; what exactly do you think they did back then?
Kick, Punch , Train, develop new patterns. Have you heard of "Captain Obvious" ? No one ever claimed a switch was flipped and everything new happened instantly. I ask again- name 3 TKD schools that existed between 1955-1959 without naming the Oh Do Kwan / 29th infantry division. Please specify where they were and who the instructors were. Unless or until you can provide this information your claim that there were TKD schools during that period who essentially practiced TSD fails.
 

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If Choi was set out to trash the Japanese connection, he didn't do a very good job.

The Chang Hon forms is a love letter to Japanese Karate. All Choi did was mix around move orders and add a few spin and jump kicks.
Do you consider Okinawan Martial Arts the same as Japanese Martial Arts?
 

Earl Weiss

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I didn't ask what he he did prior to 1955. He had 5 patterns in 1959. How do you trash the Japanese in the mid 50s with no patterns?
If your premise is that the ONLY way to have a new MA System is to have new patterns, then your premise is faulty. You can codify a new system through technical parameters for fundamental techniques. Take stances for instance as one element. Codifying length, width, angles of feet, weight distribution, amount of knee bend etc. Once you codify technical parameters, you then develop patterns containing the fundamental techniques. According to General Choi's Bio, this is what he did creating the "foundation" from 1946-1955. This also follows how he wanted TK-D taught, teach the fundamental techniques that are new to a pattern before teaching the pattern, and also how his 15 Volume set is laid out with Fundamental techniques in earlier volumes, patterns in later volumes with each pattern section being preceded with details about each new / additional technique not performed in earlier patterns.

Your "Mid 50's" no patterns point is moot since "Tk-D" wasn't born until the the mid 1950's (1955) or so and no one claims it sprang from the womb fully formed.
 

InfiniteLoop

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If your premise is that the ONLY way to have a new MA System is to have new patterns, then your premise is faulty. You can codify a new system through technical parameters for fundamental techniques. Take stances for instance as one element. Codifying length, width, angles of feet, weight distribution, amount of knee bend etc. Once you codify technical parameters, you then develop patterns containing the fundamental techniques. According to General Choi's Bio, this is what he did creating the "foundation" from 1946-1955. This also follows how he wanted TK-D taught, teach the fundamental techniques that are new to a pattern before teaching the pattern, and also how his 15 Volume set is laid out with Fundamental techniques in earlier volumes, patterns in later volumes with each pattern section being preceded with details about each new / additional technique not performed in earlier patterns.

Your "Mid 50's" no patterns point is moot since "Tk-D" wasn't born until the the mid 1950's (1955) or so and no one claims it sprang from the womb fully formed.

We don't know which type of Shotokan General Choi learned. Shotokan went through a transition phase during WW2, in which stances got deeper and wider. Whether Choi was ever exposed to this will never be known. Needless to say, that change didn't happen over night either.
 

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Your "Mid 50's" no patterns point is moot since "Tk-D" wasn't born until the the mid 1950's (1955) or so and no one claims it sprang from the womb fully formed.

You were the one disputing my claim that Tang Soo Do and TaeKwonDo were virtually indistinguishable in the mid 50s.
 
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InfiniteLoop

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Do you consider Okinawan Martial Arts the same as Japanese Martial Arts?

No, I was referring to the first Japanese Karate system, which was Funakoshis branch of Karate. He renamed it Karate. It had distinct japanese influences to its katas.
 

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Do you consider Okinawan Martial Arts the same as Japanese Martial Arts?

I know where you are going with this but in case you didn't know, General Choi learned Shotokan, not Okinawan Karate styles. His plea to Okinawa is just a way to ignore the Japanese elephant in the room. He could have done this more smoothly by not basing his forms on Shotokan.... And I'm being generous using the word "based"
 

Earl Weiss

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You were the one disputing my claim that Tang Soo Do and TaeKwonDo were virtually indistinguishable in the mid 50s.
I do not understand how you fail to grasp:

1. There was no TKD prior to 1955 so their is no point in your claim that they were indistinguishable on or prior to that.
2. From 1955-1960 there were few if any TKD schools (you have failed to identify any- ODK not withstanding) so once agai there was nothing to distinguish.
 

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No, I was referring to the first Japanese Karate system, which was Funakoshis branch of Karate. He renamed it Karate. It had distinct japanese influences to its katas.
So, once again your claim fails vis a vis Shotokan patterns referenced in General Choi's book since although used and adopted by Funakoshi they were from Okinawan systems.
 

InfiniteLoop

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So, once again your claim fails vis a vis Shotokan patterns referenced in General Choi's book since although used and adopted by Funakoshi they were from Okinawan systems.
Watch Okinawa Karate styles and the Shotokan karate styles different interpretation of the patterns, then compare which one ITF looks closer to. Then tell me whether he based his forms on the Japanese interpretation or the Okinawan. You already know the answer.
2. From 1955-1960 there were few if any TKD schools (you have failed to identify any- ODK not withstanding) so once agai there was nothing to distin
There was Chois ODK compared to TSD. That's a datapoint to compare.
 

Earl Weiss

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There was Chois ODK compared to TSD. That's a datapoint to compare.
So far that is the only data point to compare - any other TKD schools in the 1950's you would like to compare? Name , Location / instructor and date please. Unless or until you can do that it's a forgone conclusion your point (TKD Schools in the 1950's resembling TSD) has no merit.
 

InfiniteLoop

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So far that is the only data point to compare - any other TKD schools in the 1950's you would like to compare? Name , Location / instructor and date please. Unless or until you can do that it's a forgone conclusion your point (TKD Schools in the 1950's resembling TSD) has no merit.

Why does there have to be more than Chois branch for my claim to hold weight?
 
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Earl Weiss

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Why does there have to be more than Chois branch for my claim to hold weight?
Because you mention TSD and TKD schools - plural.

You are trying to compare TSD to something that did not exist excep for the inception of TKD in the Oh Do Kwan post 1955. It is a fact that he recruited top Korean MA talent and the ODK was heavily populated by CDK luminaries since that was the largest gym at the time. It's no surprise that CDK talent who learned TSD did not instantly change their habits,

You have a habit of changing your argument as the fallacies are pointed out. Is your argument now that when TKD was created theTKD gym had people who were indistinguishable from TSD - Well of course that is true - because they were TSD Black Belts.

So, are you conceding now there was one and only one TKD gym in the 1950's that appeared to be doing TSD?
 

InfiniteLoop

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Because you mention TSD and TKD schools - plural.

You are trying to compare TSD to something that did not exist excep for the inception of TKD in the Oh Do Kwan post 1955. It is a fact that he recruited top Korean MA talent and the ODK was heavily populated by CDK luminaries since that was the largest gym at the time. It's no surprise that CDK talent who learned TSD did not instantly change their habits,

You have a habit of changing your argument as the fallacies are pointed out. Is your argument now that when TKD was created theTKD gym had people who were indistinguishable from TSD - Well of course that is true - because they were TSD Black Belts.

So, are you conceding now there was one and only one TKD gym in the 1950's that appeared to be doing TSD?

So you were arguing with me all this time bout about the use of plural,.
Because you mention TSD and TKD schools - plural.

You are trying to compare TSD to something that did not exist excep for the inception of TKD in the Oh Do Kwan post 1955. It is a fact that he recruited top Korean MA talent and the ODK was heavily populated by CDK luminaries since that was the largest gym at the time. It's no surprise that CDK talent who learned TSD did not instantly change their habits,

You have a habit of changing your argument as the fallacies are pointed out. Is your argument now that when TKD was created theTKD gym had people who were indistinguishable from TSD - Well of course that is true - because they were TSD Black Belts.

So, are you conceding now there was one and only one TKD gym in the 1950's that appeared to be doing TSD?

It was my understanding that schools (plural) adopted the TKD moniker after the 1955 unification, since that was the hole point. If no such thing happened, what exactly was the unification? Unification entails pluralism.

General Choi did not seek approval from the South Korean president to merely name his own branch. That would obviously not be neccesary, and it wouldn't be a unification since it would only involve him and no other parties.
 

Earl Weiss

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It was my understanding that schools (plural) adopted the TKD moniker after the 1955 unification,
Sir, that is your misunderstanding. There was a meeting pegged as April 1955 (With some info that may not be accurate) agreeing to adopt that name.

This was vigorously opposed by many and took quite a while to become a reality. It really did not happen much if at all to until 1960 or later. Further, no one claimed that the instant a name was adopted a switch was flipped and other systems magically and immediately changed their technique. That did not mean TSD people were suddenly doing TK-D.
 

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