christian disrespect!

[SAVAGE]

I am a Roman Catholic...well when we have times of meditation...I feel as if I am praying to a bhudda...so I get caught saying prayers when the class is meditating..in the times when you must reflect on the things you have learned..."MOKOSOI" I think its called in karate. I just say a quick thank you to God that we had a good session and that no one was hurt..and if someone was that he wasnt hurt to bad..and to ask him to help me absorb all I learnt that day! I also begin my session with a quick prayer..for everyones safety!

A senior member of the Federation pointed it out, he said that it was disrespectfull to make the sign of the cross while meditating...I dont see that I am doing anything wrong...In all other factors i am one of the best students, not in terms of I can kick butt....but I make it my point to observe ettiquette...I never talk unless we are asked if we have questions...i will attempt everything the masters say without complaint and i suck it up as much as I can...except for the days when they want to work you into the ground! I know what it means to stand before a master and the things that need to be done to show respect

I was interested in your take on this disrespect because I take the time to pray during meditation!

*bows respectfully*

 

[celtic_crippler]

Firstly, I do not consider myself affiliated with any established religion.

With that in mind, I find no reason why you should not be allowed to make the sign of the cross.

Christian ethics are sound. The principles are similar to most religions, or philosophies concerning the treatment of other individuals. They make sense!

I would have a problem with this. Anyone in my class that wishes to pray, is given that opportunity. MA is not a religion. My feelings are irrelevent. In order to be fair and just one must respect the idealogy and thoughts of those that may be different. Just because they are different, does not mean they are wrong.

My 0.02

 

[Sarah]

I see no disrespect in it, that is your time to 'reflect' etc...unless your school follows a particular religion I don’t see what the fuss is about.

 

[KenpoEMT]

I don't see what all the fuss is about. Seeing someone cross themselves doesn't bother me at all. For the life of me, I can't figure out why that senior approached you about it.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Meditation, understood for what it is, is a mental activity, not a spiritual one. Reflecting upon the lessons learned in a calm moment, to try and absorb the techniques and what they mean, is the goal. As such, I see no contradiction with religious belief at all, as meditation is nothing like 'praying'. Of course, if that meditation takes the form of a dialogue with the Almighty, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

I don't see what all the fuss is about. Seeing someone cross themselves doesn't bother me at all. For the life of me, I can't figure out why that senior approached you about it.

Me neither. Unfortunately, some people DO have it in for the Christian faith. However, I think the cross IS appropriate for SAVAGE while meditating because that is when you clear your mind and focus upon what is important. To forget your faith at a time such as that IS disrespectful. The only possible point the senior could have had is a worry that SAVAGE was trying to proselytize - a really hasty conclusion.

 

[kmguy8]

it is going to be hard to reply to your post without bringing down flames (not the biblical kind) in biblical proportions....

were it my class I would be bothered, but then again I to not have meditation time at the end of my classes... if it continued I might ask you to leave solely on that basis if you refused to take the hint... one of my old teachers (now departed RHS) would certianly have asked you to leave... after hitting you with a shinai over the head (would not have asked you to stop... just hit you)... I miss him....

1. it is silly to think that simply reflecting constitutes praying to buddha.. I can not understand this silliness, however I have noted it in the overzealous christian being terrified to reflect on anything spirtual without attributing it to god... this is rare from a RC person though....

2. meditation is ussually designed to have you focus your energy inward... others newbies who are religious and not catholic and observing your behavior might confuse it with prayer in class and that could put them off the school... i'd be careful if that's what the instructor fears... they might just want to be non-denominational... & your messing that up

3. you are missing the point of meditation by having an occupied mind rather than certering your mind on your body or emptying it of thought as directed.... in many arts the empty-mind (mind of no mind)is cultivated and meditation is often intentional and valued as much as the practice is to tire your body....

4. pray after class.... jenuflexion (spelling) in MA classes is not right... prayer in classes is also not right unless part of the instruction in the south... lol

 

[SAVAGE]

proselytize .

forgive my ignorance...english is not my first language...i have no idea what this means!

 

[KenpoEMT]

...unless part of the instruction in the south... lol

I am unaware of any near-by schools that teach christianity as part of the curriculum.
If a martial arts school were used for religious indoctrination, I don't think that it would have a very large student base. Perhaps the class would be filled by members of the local congregation.

Try to read that with a southern accent, ya'll.

SAVAGE: to proselytize is to actively spread ones faith.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

forgive my ignorance...english is not my first language...i have no idea what this means!

Oh, sorry - to convert others in your class to your religion. By the way, you do very well in English for it being a second language!

 

[Paul B]

I am a Roman Catholic...well when we have times of meditation...I feel as if I am praying to a bhudda...

OK..this got me. Was there ever anything mentioned about Mokuso being a "prayer" to Bhuddha? If so..it's time to run.

Second..mokuso/mokkyung..it's a time to clear the mind and concentrate on what is at hand.

If you want to concentrate with Christian/Jewish/Islamic whatever overtones..so be it.At least you're actually thinking about what lies ahead and are not thinking about bills/dinner/the wife/..etc..which is the whole damn point of the excercise in mokuso. That's my 2 c's.

 

[kmguy8]

ummmm... joking...
if we can not pick on the south in the US
what's left?

.... wait 4get that...
i do not want to know...

 

[SAVAGE]

it is going to be hard to reply to your post without bringing down flames (not the biblical kind) in biblical proportions....

were it my class I would be bothered, but then again I to not have meditation time at the end of my classes... if it continued I might ask you to leave solely on that basis if you refused to take the hint... one of my old teachers (now departed RHS) would certianly have asked you to leave... after hitting you with a shinai over the head (would not have asked you to stop... just hit you)... I miss him....

1. it is silly to think that simply reflecting constitutes praying to buddha.. I can not understand this silliness, however I have noted it in the overzealous christian being terrified to reflect on anything spirtual without attributing it to god... this is rare from a RC person though....

2. meditation is ussually designed to have you focus your energy inward... others newbies who are religious and not catholic and observing your behavior might confuse it with prayer in class and that could put them off the school... i'd be careful if that's what the instructor fears... they might just want to be non-denominational... & your messing that up

3. you are missing the point of meditation by having an occupied mind rather than certering your mind on your body or emptying it of thought as directed.... in many arts the empty-mind (mind of no mind)is cultivated and meditation is often intentional and valued as much as the practice is to tire your body....

4. pray after class.... jenuflexion (spelling) in MA classes is not right... prayer in classes is also not right unless part of the instruction in the south... lol

I respect that..but I am neither overzealous....or fanatical about my belief...I do feel that I am doing bhuddist things...but I am secure in my belief.....also I do not pray right throughout the meditation..just at the beggining I give a quick word to god...then I ask him to help me reflect then I begin.....we are down there for a good twenty minutes for reflection.

As for the confusing the newbies...I am the only white belt...yellow bely since yesterday...but the lowest ranking memeber of the school...so I wont confuse myself....and before you go thinking this is a teenage drama..I am 27, married with child!

As for prayer in class...well what about the martial artists who pray and make signs of crosses before tournament fights or competition...surely by the same token this is not right as well..as they should be concentrating on emptying there mind before the battle!

 

[KenpoEMT]

ummmm... joking...
if we can not pick on the south in the US
what's left?

:lol: I suppose a rather large void would be left in many comedians' acts.

 

[Paul B]

....we are down there for a good twenty minutes for reflection.

Seriously? 20? How long is a class?

 

[Kacey]

forgive my ignorance...english is not my first language...i have no idea what this means!

proselytize: to attempt to convert another person to your beliefs; generally used in a religious context.

I would have to agree with kmguy8 to a certain extent. When my class meditates at the beginning and end of class, it serves a specific purpose - before class, to clear the mind of the day's events so as to be ready to learn, and at the end of class, to fix information from class in one's mind to help remember it. To that end, it has nothing to do with prayer; my directions to my students are, at the beginning of class, "clear you minds so you are ready to learn" and at the end of class "think about something you learned so you remember it". If you are praying, you are almost certainly not doing the latter; depending on how you pray, you may be doing the former. Either way, I try to keep my class free of religion, for several reasons, not the least of which being that none of my students share my religion (I'm Jewish), compounded by the fact that I teach in a secular facility with roots in a religious facility (YMCA = Young Men's Christian Association).

In addition, I have had parents of minor students and adults students approach me with concerns about the meditation and possible religious connotations, which would be potentially problematic for them, so I avoid it as much as possible. While I certainly cannot monitor what a person is thinking when they meditate (nor would I presume to do so), outward manifestions of people's thoughts, such as gestures, may be distracting to other people who are trying to concentrate - and it is from that perspective that I would have a problem with you crossing yourself; not because it is religious, but because it may be distracting for others, in addition to possibly giving observers the wrong idea.

Can you pray when you meditate? That's up to you. But if your instructor has asked you not to cross yourself, you need to talk to him to determine why the request was made. If it is offensive to him, or other class members, for any reason, then you need to be sensitive to that. Crossing yourself is a gestural representation of prayer; it is not, to my understanding, prayer in itself.

A reasonable compromise may be that you think about whatever you like, but avoid gestures that may be distracting, or possibly disturbing, to other people. In addition, if this is a private facility rather than a public one, then the owner/operator/instructor has the legal right to ask you to desist, at least in the US - whether or not he has the moral right is an argument for a different thread.

 

[Andrew Green]

Depends on the nature of the school. In most cases I don't think it would be dissrespectful, but if the meditation is seen as a religious ritual I could see that coming off funny.

I'm not Christian, but if I am in a group and a prayer is being said I stand and take part out of respect. If I go to a Jewish wedding I wear a skull cap in the temple. I wouldn't alter the rituals to suit my own beliefs, This is there place, there rituals and I am a guest, so I pay the respect and honor them while I am there.

Same as if your group started reciting the lords prayer, it would be rude for someone at the same time to start reciting a Muslim Prayer. There house, there rules. If in doubt go to the owner / head instructor and ask what the meditation is and if what you are doing is ok.

 

[kmguy8]

I respect that..but I am neither overzealous....or fanatical about my belief...I do feel that I am doing bhuddist things...but I am secure in my belief.....also I do not pray right throughout the meditation..just at the beggining I give a quick word to god...then I ask him to help me reflect then I begin.....we are down there for a good twenty minutes for reflection.

if your secure then ditch the sign of the cross after meditation my friend, if for no other reason than it has pretty clearly been asked of you... shouldn't be a big deal.. it is his/her class right? 20 minutes is a bit long, long enough that would be the rub if it had been me posting, lol

As for the confusing the newbies...I am the only white belt...yellow bely since yesterday...but the lowest ranking memeber of the school...so I wont confuse myself....and before you go thinking this is a teenage drama..I am 27, married with child!

someday there will be others, and thier could be others in the clss that have complained without your knowing who have been there a long time...?
just a possibility....
also, I assumed you we an adult by your manner of experssion, a younger one but I do not feel it is all that relevant to the issue... I would not dismiss your feelings based on your age... lots of mature teens and immature grandparents out there!

As for prayer in class...well what about the martial artists who pray and make signs of crosses before tournament fights or competition...surely by the same token this is not right as well..as they should be concentrating on emptying there mind before the battle!

before personal competition is a different time (and you know it). although I feel you are totally right (and in the strictest sense believe they should view the opponent as not seperate from themselves so there is not victory or loss) this sense of combat takes years to impart to students... many need the ego to drive the accuisition of skills that later will allow them to abandon the ego.... also, many are weak and wounded and need any assurance they can get of thier own saftey and willpower to enter any kind of fight. as an instructor teaching a very traditional concept... there is a time and place and I would work with the student one on one before and after comps in the future to help them "get the right mindset"... in terms of schools and comps.. some will always allow prayer.. even have team prayer... to which I say "different strokes for different folks"....

*deep breath*

 

[Phoenix44]

I personally don't see why you shouldn't be able to cross yourself if that's what you feel comfortable doing. It's YOUR meditation. I would discuss your feelings with the teacher.

 

[IcemanSK]

Savage:

While I only know you through your writtings on a few boards, I know you to be honest & genuine. As you've pointed out, many professional atheletes (who aren't even Catholic) cross themselves openly before competition. In the USA & a lot of other places, boxers hear the bell & they cross themselves.

My question (that I think you're wondering also) is why are your higher ranks upset about it? I know how long you've studied & how important training is to you. Why do they care if you use the meditation time for prayer?

Does this bother you to the point of wondering if you want to continue training with these people? Can you pray without crossing yourself? (I imagine it would be hard to not do something you do by reflex such as that). For me, it would be hard to continue training with these folks. I'm not telling you what I think you ought to do, I'm just sharing my view.

I will pray for you that this will be resolved in a way that helps to continue to both train & pray as you see fit.