Children's Programs

[Rob_Broad]

As many of you know I wrote an e-book on Instructing Children in the Martial Arts. So I am now asking your opinions on children's programs. My biggest question is should children learn the self defense techniques that are found in the various kenpo systems, please give your reasons as you why you gave the answer you did.

 

[Turner]

Many people will only learn their martial art as a child. This being the case, I believe in teaching them the subject "for real/not watered down" so that they might be better prepared to use the information to defend themselves. (as a child or adult) Most children are more responsible than we think and can handle the techniques if they are taught a code of honor to back it up.

 

[Kirk]

I voted yes, but it's not completely accurate. My instructor
teaches modified TKD to kids. They learn all kenpo sets and
forms though. Junior black belts in his school are awesome
at Long 4. If/when they reach jr. b.b., he starts them on
kenpo techs slowly, and they get tabs for completing each
color. When they come to the adult class, they know all the sets,
and forms, so they pretty much just have to learn the techs
per belt. I've seen 2 jr. b.b.'s start in my class. 1 was 16, and
1 is 13. The 16 yr old came in as a green belt, the 13 yr old came
in as purple (although he just picked up blue today). The 13
yr old is amazingly mature for his age, and of above average
intelligence ( IMHO ). Both were very skilled, and both will
probably earn their black belt at the first test after they turn
18. My instructor lets them come to the adult class once they
earn their JR b.b., AND when he feels they're mature enough.
There's some that have earned their jr b.b., but haven't learned
a lick of kenpo yet, because they haven't demonstrated enough
maturity to handle it.

I'm no instructor, but I hope to be one day. And if I end up
running a children's program, I think I'll follow my instructor's
example.

 

[Klondike93]

I voted yes, because my instuctor teaches them, but not all of them to kids. He has a kids curriculum and a tweens curriculum.

Me, I tend to think that anyone under 13-14 is wasting their time.
They don't have the attention span to stay interested in what your doing. I'm a discipline type of person and you just can't do it to young kids. They don't understand why your disciplining them and think you hate them. It takes so much patience to work with them.


:asian:

 

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Klondike93

I voted yes, because my instuctor teaches them, but not all of them to kids. He has a kids curriculum and a tweens curriculum.

Me, I tend to think that anyone under 13-14 is wasting their time.
They don't have the attention span to stay interested in what your doing. I'm a discipline type of person and you just can't do it to young kids. They don't understand why your disciplining them and think you hate them. It takes so much patience to work with them.


:asian:

I pretty much agree here also. Of course, the same can be said for some flaky adults as well.

 

[Goldendragon7]

are necessary and wholesome.

:asian:

 

[Rob_Broad]

I voted No!

I believe there is enough material for children to learn with out doing the self defense techniques. With the basics, forms, sets, and sparring with maybe some weapons work a child should be be challenged enough so that the self defenses do not need to be put into their progrma til they are in a teen progarm at age 12 -13 depending on their maturity.

The idea of teaching groin kick, and strike to the neck to children makes me shiver in fear. Not only of the possible lawsuit, but also of the damage they could do to someone else which they could have to pay for, for the rest of their lives.

I do believe that children need a highly structired class, and lots of stimulation. But there are many things they could learn until they are old enough to be responsible for the knowledge they learn in the self defense techniques.

 

[Yari]

That is a difficult question.

On one hand it's OK to teach children (which age?) anything, but children don't understand the ramifications some situations could have. I beleive it's your responsability as an grownup to not put the child in a situation it can't handle either mentally of physically.

Depending on how old the child is, and what kind of selfdefence we're talking, I say start off with play and move on to self defence as the child can handle the consequences of the things he/her learns.


/Yari

 

[WilliamTLear]

But I think a modified curriculum is important to implement as well. (Some techniques are too dangerous, or too complicated for children to handle).

Take Care,
Billy Lear 3rd Degree Brown Belt
United Kenpo Systems
www.uks-kenpo.com :asian:

 

[Yari]

Originally posted by WilliamTLear

But I think a modified curriculum is important to implement as well. (Some techniques are too dangerous, or too complicated for children to handle).

Take Care,
Billy Lear 3rd Degree Brown Belt
United Kenpo Systems
www.uks-kenpo.com :asian:

Yes I agree, but great care has to be taken in how the modifications are made. I've seen some grim examples of modifications, that gave problems when the child was to move up in the grades. Were unlearning had to be done.


/Yari

 

[Goldendragon7]

and as a supporter for the Yes point of view, we need to teach the movements if we are teaching "self defense"..... a student may actually "need" to use a groin kick to defend oneself (6 - 25 years old is the greatest age area for most confrontations anyway..... and several happen under 12.

I do also agree that a STRONG emphasis be place upon PROPER usage of said movements and ramifications of doing such a move must be constantly "taught" and ingrained.

I have taught many, many kids in the past 30 years and I can tell you there is no easy answer to this question. lol.... it is a great discussion topic for thought regardless of which posture/path you choose to follow.

:asian:

 

[KenpoTess]

Hi All,

My husband (Seig) and I have recently started a children's class at our Kenpo dojo. As a stylist, I believe children have the innate ability to learn this art without harming their psyche or any other emotional issue. I've seen teenagers flaunting their knowledge of karate to other kids and wreaking havoc with neighborhood bullies.. Each and every child is a different personality.. It seems at our Dojo we've attracted the 'misfits' Kids that are ADH.. the picked on.. little nerds etc. They are all fantastic people but lacking in social personal identity skills.. Which is something they are learning.. Confidence.. Self Assurance...Self Control amongst a few.
We instill in these kids.. this is NOT to be used on friends, or at School and we make sure the parents know this .. there are Rules to be abided by them and if they are broken there are penalties to be paid.

In the Spirit of Martial Arts
Tess

 

[Courtney's Dad]

Hi,

you've hit upon a subject near and dear to me so I apologize for the long answer. my daughter is 5yrs old and just tested for and received her orange belt three weeks ago.

i am a novice to Kenpo and my only knowledge and experience as it is, is through helping my daughter and observing and talking with her instructor and other Kenpoists (oh yeah, and a bunch of Larry Tatum videos). i debated long and hard before enrolling her in Kenpo because of this issue and others.

i think the techniques can be great things for kids to learn...

once they are mature enough to understand when and where and what circumstances might warrant use of those techniques.

and when they are mature enough to learn them.

I've noticed that many of the instructors vary what they teach the kids at my daughters school. mostly because, as someone else pointed out here,they're not nearly ready physically or in attention span and retention to learn certain things. most of the kids are between 3 and 9 years old. they go through generally five to ten techniques per belt.

i'll limit my post to yellow and orange belt testing because that's where my kid is orange. some of the kids are taught short one and most are taught the kicking set for orange.

but i think they alter their teaching in content many times because the child they are working with just isn't ready to take on any more.

now i'm gonna brag some (sorry). Courtney, learned 18 of the 24 techniques, short one right and left and the kicking set. the techniques her instructor left out she tells me are difficult to learn because of size. from what i could tell from the videos and from practicing with her, i think my kid does them pretty darn well (proud daddy, sorry).

now the reason why i think learning potentially dangerous techniques is ok for my kid.

1 she can retain the info.
2 she can perform the techniques
3 and i think most important, she really does know how dangerous they are and why she needs to think before using them.

now "bad people trying to take me away or hurt me"
might sound really simplistic, but not too bad an answer to me. she knows Karate is not for the playground or with friends or even with mom. only with dad. lucky me. she also knows they are not for sparring.

her instructor goes over the importance of knowing when and where to use techniques constantly and so do i at home.

so.... my answer is... it probably is and should be an individual thing. There is plenty for the kids to learn at the dojo. balance, coordination, footwork, punches, kicks, etc. But i think it would be unfortunate if some great instructors with a good feel for their kids didn't teach kids everything they could learn just because they are kids.

great line from a movie Stand and Deliver "students will rise to the level of expectations"

if we expect kids not to be able to understand, not to learn, then they won't. I've always said give them a chance. push the limits, open the doors, give encouragement and watch carefully to guide them but not limit them.

thanks for the soap box.

Courtney's Dad

 

[Zoran]

Courtney's Dad,

It is good to hear from a parent who is involved with thier child. Martial Arts can never be a substitute for good parenting. What it can be is a great tool for a good parent. You sound like a good parent and am happy to know there are people out there like yourself.

Just my $ .02

 

[brianhunter]

I may be opening a big can of worms here but I look at it the same way as giving the child a weapon. How he uses the weapon will be entirely up to what the PARENTS have instilled in the child.
I grew up with a household full of weapons but I knew that if I showed the proper respect and rules that my grandpa set out, I would be able to use those weapons for what they were intended when the time comes.
Dealing with kids on the streets a lot I see too many parents who want to blame something else...learning disabilities, broken homes etc.. But I feel honestly in my heart we need to teach our kids INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILITY.
When children take something and use it in a harmfull way we want to blame everyone.....teachers... instructors.... video games... the list goes on and on.
How much individual responsibility had the parents instilled into that child? most the time none...its always society or the TV at fault. Parents need to step up to the plate and teach their kids to fish so others wont have to spoon feed them for a lifetime.

Just my 2 cents...I work with kids daily as a police officer and I love them and believe they are who take over when we are old and disabled thats alot of the reason I got into teaching the DARE program... But we must first teach them responsibility
:soapbox:

 

[Nightingale]

my instructor makes the kid learn the same amount of techniques as they are years old. For an orange belt, a five year old needs to know: all his/her basics, short form 1, and five self defense techniques. A six year old would need to know six self defense techniques. Our childrens program only has twelve techniques on the kids cards, and the instructors try to make sure the kids learn the ones that they are most likely to need. Any child over age 12 belongs in the adult class and has the same requirements as the adults.

The theory behind this: it takes the kids longer to get their belts anyway, just because they need to review more often. Generally, by the time they are a brown belt ready to test for black, they are either: a: already in the adult class because they are over age 12, or b: have been exposed to all the kids techniques at least, can hold their own in a sparring match, and are able to defend themselves to the satisfaction of the instructor.

For the most part, parents don't bring their kids in to learn a "sport" If they wanted that, they'd sign the kid up for soccer. Parents bring their child in to learn how to defend him or herself. Self defense techniques are only ideas, and part of our belt tests include the instructor saying "I'm going to attack you and you'd better do something or you're going to get hit." Techniques at least give you a starting point and something to build on. Kenpo techniques for the most part can work regardless of the size of the opponent if modifications are made...there's no point in teaching a five year old to block a punch. a block meets force with force, and a five year old simply cannot produce enough force to make a block practical. However, if you modify the technique with say...a parry and an angle change to get out of the way, the technique can still work.

It has to be stressed that techniques are only ideas. Kenpo techniques are fast and effective, and they are also highly adaptable. When I was attacked, I ended up using the first move of one technique, the middle of a second, and the end of a different one. Because of my training, I adapted the techniques to my situation and my surroundings, and those techniques probably saved my life. I don't believe in denying a child knowledge that could potentially rescue them from a sticky situation. A child knows what is appropriate behavior. They already know how to hit someone before they come to martial arts, and they already know its not nice to hit mom, dad, brother, sister, or friend. This just needs to be reinforced in class.

:soapbox:

 

[John Bishop]

My youth classes are for 8-12 year olds. I do not teach them the same traditional Kajukenbo techniques that the adults learn. But I keep the modifications simple enough that they can quickly adapt to the adult techniques once they go into that class. Example, Kajukenbo/Kenpo techniques have a multitude of eye, throat, and groin strikes. I don't think that kids have the self control to not use these techniques once they become involved in a fight. And, the first one who will be sued is the person who taught them to poke someone in the eyes. So, groin kicks are replaced by shin or stomach kicks, and eye and throat attacks are replaced by palm strikes to the face.
Now, once a kid grows up and matures a little bit it's simple to turn the shin or stomach kick into a groin kick. One adjustment of a kick or hand strike, and the technique is the same as the adult techniques.

 

[KenpoTess]

Since our childrens' class is small and relatively new for our dojo, I've been watching the kids train and observing individualistic ways each child's techniques are performed. We have 2 brothers who one, is very outgoing,charismatic and playful. He is athletic outside the dojo and enjoys life it seems. He listens and obeys the rules.
His older brother is a bookish type fellow, picked on in school, delicate bone structure and has issues with authority (this is the one I'm concerned about using any of the techniques against someone who might cross him in life) Older brothers step mom brought him especially to learn self-defense. We have explained the 'rules' to her *no sign of dad in the picture yet* but have heard he is very athletic and his younger son takes after him, and we sense he favors the younger boy. So we will continue to watch him, guide and teach .. but it is with some trepidation I hold, which maybe just the 'mother' in me.
We also have 2 ADH kids who have absolutely exceeded our expectations, one just 15 and one 10. They came to the dojo as shy individuals (one last June, he is now going for his purple belt)
and the 10 yr old going for orange. They have opened up and become valued members of our school.
Now we are facing 4 brothers who have come to one class, each one is a 'misfit' according to the mother, They loved class one and will be returning tonight.
I think each child can be taught if the instructor gets inside the 'whys of taking karate' and tone it down as far as teaching techniques to children that would be harmful as far as their age and ability to acknowlege the potential harm of using it against another person. Even the 'white belt' techniques in GM Parker's system are devastating if performed by a stylist. We stress Control, we don't teach hard blocking nor Power at this age/ rank. It's the fluidity of motion-repetition- discipline and never say 'I can't'.

In the Spirit of Martial Arts

Tess
Ken-Jiu Ryu Karate Do

 

[Goldendragon7]

For over 25 years.... I can say there are some very good comments in this string on this topic. I have had a great amount of success with children (under 10) and the psychology of how to deal with them - I can tell you this ..... it isn't easy. Good mannered children, Power Ranger & Ninja Turtle excited, weak and timid, overweight, under weight, "ADD" and of course the "misfits" will all enter the class all looking for different achievements (or their parents are!) and yet "all" need to work together....... whewwwwwwwwwww.

Yes as most of our banners advertise........ respect - discipline - coordination - weight control - self defense - mental focus and a variety of other elements we feel will be benefits of training with us...... we attract this diversified group of people.

Now the trick....... how to deal with effectively all of them simultaneously! LOL. Quite a feat. Well, for a well trained Kenpo studio this can be a cake walk with a good curriculum, patient instructors, and lots of understanding.

There is much to learn here and to be concerned with when working with children. Lets look at a few of the issues.......

* Safety....... the children must be in a safe and fun but respectful
environment.
* Friendly but firm instructors that must gain respect and order
for the entire class.
* Instructional material driven that is standardized for all - but,
fun classes to satisfy both the parents (who are investing in
you) and the kids (that you want to stay and reap the benefits
over time - and yes it does take time!)
* Length of class times that are appreciate to the young mind....
Long classes are ok for adults but not for children.
* "Constant" reinforcement of Positive Elements... respect, (Yes
sir/imam, no sir/imam), class control, when and when not to
use your new found skills, achievement driven reward/awards
programs (stars for good grades & several small promotions in-
class for help and attitude.
* It also helps to have children that "want" to be there, and not
just the parents that want their little Joey or sally to be able to
defend themselves!! (This is a great reason to have a good
trial and testing period to see if you can in fact help this
particular child and want them in your class - one monster can
run off several other good students)

Now, with all that being said.... the next is just what is the studios philosophy as to what they want to accomplish with the children. I have a special curriculum that has worked wonders with youth and at the same time, developed a "no fear" attitude towards sparring and working close with each other. (Trade secret) lol it is great to see the children spar and have fun yet develop into warriors one day!

Keep the comments coming ....... this is a great string.... although I'd like to hear from some of the guys as well...... lol... but Gals... you are usually the best teachers for the little ones because you are less gruff (except for Tune) lol, jk........ and the kids identify with the female voice usually at this age better than a man (note K-5 is usually a female teacher in regular school).

Have fun investing in our future........... our children!!

:asian:

 

[Seig]

Tess and I received an offhand compliment tonight that floored me, and pleased me. As she has said, our kids class is full of "Misfits". To the unintiated it appears to be chaos. What I have found through trial and error are two things: 1.) Breaking up the training with playing helps their attention and my nerves. 2.) Sometimes you need to wean the children from Mom/or Dad.
The compliment pertains to #1 "I can't believe how much these kids retain with all the playing you let them do. She (daughter ADHD) can't wait to show me what she has learned after each class." At first, i didn't hear the compliment, I THOUGHT I heard a rebuke. Then I thought about it, and said Thank you. I'm glad she is enjoying herself.
One of my green belts and his wife just had their second child. Son #1 is VERY jealous and starting to act up a little. Dad asked if he could bring the tyke to the kids class. So we said, sure. It took some doing to get him on the floor but he eventually did and is having a ball. The problem is, whenever Dad is out of sight, and he notices, he freaks. So what we have started doing is having Dad start working with him and slowly moving off. It seems to be working.