Chen Manching

oxy

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Taking my own advice, I'll be clarifying myself, even if no one listens:

I read over the thread again to make sure I was not off my nut and I still don't see anything that has been suggested by either party.

None of dmax's posts ever had the feel of veiled accusations. The way he worded his posts did fit the pattern a lot, but not the content of his posts. That is why I made the analysis I did. His first question that started off this branch of discussion was one that was purely out of curiosity/desire-to-find-out. Mistakes were made in interpretation, and the reason used (that there was limited time available) is one of the most common reasons why people develop conditioned responses in the first place. It's nothing bad, but it was something someone on the receiving end might need to have something definite to outline with.

And Xue Sheng wasn't "implying" anything with his repeated points about the changes made to CMC. We're all familiar with Xue Sheng's opinions on CMC Taiji in general, so that's a non-issue.

Now I don't know why my lack of Taiji knowledge continues to come into question when, in this thread anyway (and I would say in other Taiji threads), I have never tried to confirm or deny the facts of the history, philosophy or technique of any style of Taiji. I do not understand why many people feel that my lack of qualifications in Taiji somehow makes me unqualified to clarify misunderstandings that occur between the points people are trying to make and what people are trying to talk about or that I'm unqualified to talk about rationality in thinking. Do I need to be a student of Taiji before I can talk about rationality or to make sense of what people are trying to say?

I have not been analysing anyone, unless the "situation" can qualify as a person. None of my comments have questioned Xue Sheng's opinions of CMC at all, so that question, rhetorical it may be, was a complete surprise.

As for me taking this thread off course, I apologise. Next time I'll just go through the motions of either agreeing or disagreeing like everybody else expects instead of looking at things from another angle. After all, who am I to say that the answer to both side's question is not whether one side is right and the other wrong, but that both sides have misunderstood the other's intentions?

Hanlon's Razor seems to be very useful as of late:

Do not attribute to malice that which can be explained by unawareness.

Not that anyone cares, but I'll continue to analyse who or what I like. What I do with that analysis will be used, hopefully without needing to be used publicly. I'll also be continuing to look at things from completely different angles rather than the stock positions of agreeing or disagreeing. This thread was already off course when one side's comments were pigeon-holed into a stock position of disagreement when it in fact was a curiosity that had the makings of a different angle but was unfortunately not recognised due to the kludge that is the intarwebs.
 

Jade Tigress

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marlon

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Eastwinds, can i ask what exactly you find 'missing' in CMC teachings and form?

Respectfully,
Marlon
 

East Winds

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marlon,

Thanks for the enquiry. I don't (perhaps surprisingly) find anything "missing" from CMC's form or his teachings. CMC taiji is Cheng Man Ching Taiji
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If however you mean "missing" in relation to Yang Cheng fu's form, then of course CMC dropped 2 thirds of Yang's form. I think he misunderstood the reason for the repititions in Yang's form and considered them to be "excessive and (to) have no significance".

Very best wishes
 

marlon

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Thank you east winds,
from what i have read cmc never thought the repetiions had no significance but that he wanted to make it easier for people to learn..and it seems to me that even in his form there are reptitionsbut what do i know. What are the reasons and significance for the repitions?

Respectfully,
Marlon
 

East Winds

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marlon,

The quote I gave was a direct quote from Cheng Man Ching himself. Here is an expanded version of it. "I believe that the repetitions are excessive and have no significance. They waste mental energy and are without benefit" Cheng Man-Ching's Advanced Form Instructions : Translated by Douglas Wile 1985 page 19.

And of course the repetitions train Peng energy; the mainstay of Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan.

Very best wishes
 
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Xue Sheng

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marlon,

The quote I gave was a direct quote from Cheng Man Ching himself. Here is an expanded version of it. "I believe that the repetitions are excessive and have no significance. They waste mental energy and are without benefit" Cheng Man-Ching's Advanced Form Instructions : Translated by Douglas Wile 1985 page 19.

And of course the repetitions train Peng energy; the mainstay of Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan.

Very best wishes

I too have read that quote from Cheng Manching
 

marlon

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"tai chi chuan has traditionally consisted of about 120 movements, many of them repetitions. I have doubts about these repetitions, for they are of no benefit to the substance and application. I have come to believe there are three reasons for them. First, it was feared that the practitioner had no perserverence and , therefore, the time of the set was purposely prolonged in order to cultivate perseverence. Secondly, in the set there are some basic movements the student MUST repeat and practice if he is to improve. Thridly, the original set of thirteen postures was too short and required too little expenditure of energy.....i had to simplify the form in order to spread it, and i had to spread it so that it could make the people and the country strong....i hope my readers may offer thier comments
CMC Thirteen Treatises page 103 Ben Lo translation
 

marlon

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CMC says that Proffessor Yang taught him " the feet, legs, and waist must act together simultaneaously. It is rooted in the feet, released through the legs, controlled by the waist, and manifested through the fingers..."...from thi, it can be seen that the beginnings and endings of movements cannot be separated.

any comments?

Respectfully,
marlon
 

East Winds

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marlon,

Even in Ben Lo's translation, CMC says (about the repetitions) "I have doubts about these repetitions, for they are of no benefit to the substance and application". I think he then shows his lack of understanding about the repetitions by giving his three reasons as to why they were added.

" the feet, legs, and waist must act together simultaneaously. It is rooted in the feet, released through the legs, controlled by the waist, and manifested through the fingers..."...from thi, it can be seen that the beginnings and endings of movements cannot be separated
.

I don't think any real taiji practitioner would argue with that
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How do you think we issue Fa Jin in Traditional Yang?

Very best wishes
 

marlon

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" the feet, legs, and waist must act together simultaneaously. It is rooted in the feet, released through the legs, controlled by the waist, and manifested through the fingers..."...from thi, it can be seen that the beginnings and endings of movements cannot be separated.

I don't think any real taiji practitioner would argue with that
icon7.gif
How do you think we issue Fa Jin in Traditional Yang?

Very best wishes[/quote]

thank you Eastwinds,
i also note that he says that they can do the form more often to have the repetitions..but again my ingnorance may be showing. It is interesting. b The above quote in mention because i was told to demonstrate more distinction between each posture and that i flowed them together too much. Also, please tell me how you issue fa jing in Yang taiji.

Respectfully,
Marlon
 

East Winds

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marlon,

Thanks for ther response. In our early efforts to make our taiji "flow", we tend, (as you have been told), to run one posture into the next and do not distinguish between each postsure. We have a concept (at least in Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan) of "Stopping without stopping". you need to get your teacher to show this process, it is too difficult to try and put into words. The concept is exactly to do with issuing Fa Jin. It is also the distinguishing of the Yin and Yang within each posture. Remember that the Yin aspect is every bit as important as the Yang aspect.

As top how we issue Fa Jin in Yang style - exactly the same way as the Chen's do it!!!!
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only not so obvious. Get your teacher to explain.

Very best wishes
 
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Xue Sheng

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Each posture has a definite beginning and end however the end of one posture does not mean stop it means the beginning of the next posture.

fajing - comes from the feet is directed by the waist and issued from there to but it simply and you also need to be rather relaxed but not soft like a pillow relaxed.
 

marlon

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EW and XS,
thank you. unfortunately the teacher i have is a 3 year student and i do not think that he 'gets' everything yet but i will ask again. I am working on the things you have mentioned the soft the flow the slow the issuing of energy through intention, using the root and allowing the waist to direct all movements after my intention has initiated the movement and let the rest of my body follow...ahhhhhh!!!! but the effort is good and i am loving it. All your words and advice and disagreements i find most useful

respectfully,
marlon
 

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