Catch 22: The Scum We Fight

[celtic_crippler]

So...

Yeah...it's "war" in Afghanistan...right?

But unlike the wars of the past, now ...more than ever... US soldiers bend over backwards to try and ensure no civilians are injured; only "military" targets are engaged/attacked/destroyed.

The enemy knows this...and uses it against us. They hide behind walls of women and children, execute attacks from heavily civilian populated areas or structures, or worse...

If, in the event, we even accidentally injure a civilian during combat then we're demonized world-wide. Yet these guys do things as evidenced in the link below and it gets little to no coverage nor does it raise the ire of the international community in the same way.

Why is that?


WARNING: This Clip May Not Be Appropriate For Everyone.
Clip

 

[Flying Crane]

what do you suggest as a solution to the problem?

 

[celtic_crippler]

what do you suggest as a solution to the problem?

I don't know!

It's a Catch 22!

What could be done is more support from the international community. Why aren't they raising a fuss over this mess the way they would if the US were responsible for the kids death?

What about the media? Why aren't they covering this the same way they would if the US military had been responsible for the kids death?

Why are they only outraged when we do it on accident and not when they do it on purpose?

 

[Flying Crane]

I don't know!

It's a Catch 22!

What could be done is more support from the international community. Why aren't they raising a fuss over this mess the way they would if the US were responsible for the kids death?

What about the media? Why aren't they covering this the same way they would if the US military had been responsible for the kids death?

Why are they only outraged when we do it on accident and not when they do it on purpose?

maybe everyone has become a bit jaded. when extremists commit atrocities, it's sort of expected. When the US, who holds ourselves out to be on a higher moral ground commits atrocities, then it's sensational enough to be newsworthy and brings to question the notion that we are on a higher moral ground.

The news mostly only reports on sensational news, so that's what gets attention.

As to the international community, I dunno. The US has, for better or for worse, assumed the role of World Policeman, a role that I disagree with. So maybe the international community sits back and says, hey, if the US wants to play that role, then let them deal with the problems and the fallout when things go wrong.

The world is an ugly place, and issues are often complex and have many different facets. The way we see things may not be the way that others see them, even our own allies.

 

[geezer]

If, in the event, we even accidentally injure a civilian during combat then we're demonized world-wide. Yet these guys do things as evidenced in the link below and it gets little to no coverage nor does it raise the ire of the international community in the same way.

Why is that?

On a local level, in their country, I suspect that what we do attracts so much negative attention because we are the foreigners, the lastest in a series of outside invaders stretching back thousands of years. Nevermind how good our intentions may be.

As far as the international community goes, I really don't think you can generalize, except that as others have already noted, we are the big guy on the block, and attract a lot of resentment for that alone. And, we do throw our weight around a lot. It may be necessary, but it's not the most endearing way to behave.

 

[Big Don]

On a local level, in their country, I suspect that what we do attracts so much negative attention because we are the foreigners, the lastest in a series of outside invaders stretching back thousands of years. Nevermind how good our intentions may be.

As far as the international community goes, I really don't think you can generalize, except that as others have already noted, we are the big guy on the block, and attract a lot of resentment for that alone. And, we do throw our weight around a lot. It may be necessary, but it's not the most endearing way to behave.

After the second Carter admin, er... the Obama admin, we'll have to compare notes and see how well bending over and taking it works for us...
Worked great for Poland in 39...

 

[Bob Hubbard]

The Poles fought, they just lost.

 

[Big Don]

The Poles fought, they just lost.

After Neville sold them and the rest of Europe out.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Don't get me started on Mr. Appeasement there......

 

[Big Don]

Don't get me started on Mr. Appeasement there......

So, Obama's appeasement of Putin with regard to the missile shield bothers you too?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Don, imagine what Gen. George Patton would say about that, and remember that I grew up with him as one of my major heroes.

 

[Omar B]

We all know appeasement never works, it just emboldens your enemy. Ninja squad anyone?

 

[Big Don]

Patton’s Speech to the Staff Officers

I have been given command of Third Army for reasons which will become clear to you later on. You made an outstanding record as an able and hard-working staff under my predecessor. I have no doubt you will do the same for me. We now have two staffs merging into one, each with its own procedures. By working harmoniously and intelligently together a third staff will be developed with a third procedure, which should be better than either of the other two.
I am here because of the confidence of two men: The President of the United States and the theater commander. They have confidence in me because they don't believe a lot of goddamned lies that have been printed about me and also because they know I mean business when I fight. I don't fight for fun and I won't tolerate anyone on my staff who does.
You are here to fight. This is an active theater of war. Ahead of you lies battle. That means just one thing. You can't afford to be a goddamned fool, because, in battle, fools mean dead men. It is inevitable for men to be killed and wounded in battle. But there is no reason why such losses should be increased because of the incompetence and carelessness of some stupid son-of-a-*****. I don't tolerate such men on my staff.
There are three reasons why we are fighting this war. The first is because we are determined to preserve our traditional liberties. Some crazy German bastards decided they were supermen and that it was their holy mission to rule the world. They've been pushing people around all over the world, looting, killing, and abusing millions of innocent men, women, and children. They were getting set to do the same thing to us. We had to fight to prevent being subjugated.
The second reason we are fighting is to defeat and wipe out the Nazis who started all this goddamned son-of-bitchery. They didn't think we could or would fight, and they weren't the only ones who thought that, either. There are certain people back home who had the same idea. Both were wrong.
The third reason we are fighting is because men like to fight. They always have and they always will. Some sophists and other crackpots deny that. They don't know what they're talking about. They are either goddamned fools or cowards, or both. Men like to fight, and if they don't they're not real men.
If you don't like to fight, I don't want you around. You'd better get out before I kick you out. But there is one thing to remember. In war, it takes more than the desire to fight to win. You've got to have more than guts to lick the enemy. You must also have brains. It takes brains and guts to win wars. A man with guts but no brains is only half a soldier. We licked the Germans in Africa and Sicily because we had brains as well as guts. We're going to lick them in Europe for the same reason.
That's all and good luck.
****************

Son of a bitchery, that is a finely turned phrase.
​

 

[Big Don]

Bob, I don't know what he would say, but, given his speeches, it wouldn't be politically correct.
3rd Army Speech - England.
31 MAY 1944 - 6th Armored Division


Now I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. You won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country. Men, all this stuff you've heard about America not wanting to fight, wanting to stay out of the war, is a lot of horse dung. Americans traditionally love to fight. All real Americans, love the sting of battle. When you were kids, you all admired the champion marble shooter, the fastest runner, the big league ball players, the toughest boxers ... Americans love a winner and will not tolerate a loser. Americans play to win all the time. I wouldn't give a hoot in Hell for a man who lost and laughed. That's why Americans have never lost and will never lose a war. Because the very thought of losing is hateful to Americans. Now, an army is a team. It lives, eats, sleeps, fights as a team. This individuality stuff is a bunch of crap. The Bilious bastards who wrote that stuff about individuality for the Saturday Evening Post, don't know anything more about real battle than they do about fornicating. Now we have the finest food and equipment, the best spirit, and the best men in the world. You know ... My God, I actually pity those poor bastards we're going up against. My God, I do. We're not just going to shoot the bastards, we're going to cut out their living guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks. We're going to murder those lousy Hun bastards by the bushel. Now some of you boys, I know, are wondering whether or not you'll chicken out under fire. Don't worry about it. I can assure you that you'll all do your duty. The Nazis are the enemy. Wade into them. Spill their blood, shoot them in the belly. When you put your hand into a bunch of goo, that a moment before was your best friends face, you'll know what to do. Now there's another thing I want you to remember. I don't want to get any messages saying that we are holding our position. We're not holding anything, we'll let the Hun do that. We are advancing constantly, and we're not interested in holding onto anything except the enemy. We're going to hold onto him by the nose, and we're going to kick him in the ***. We're going to kick the hell out of him all the time, and we're going to go through him like crap through a goose. Now, there's one thing that you men will be able to say when you get back home, and you may thank God for it. Thirty years from now when you're sitting around your fireside with your grandson on your knee, and he asks you, What did you do in the great World War Two? You won't have to say, Well, I shoveled **** in Louisiana. Alright now, you sons of bitches, you know how I feel. I will be proud to lead you wonderful guys into battle anytime, anywhere. That's all.
General George S. Patton, Jr.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Patton was a poet.

Returning to the OP, and the tactics our enemy are now using against us, which is often our own press as much as their bullets, what can we do?

The answer is right there.
"But there is one thing to remember. In war, it takes more than the desire to fight to win. You've got to have more than guts to lick the enemy. You must also have brains. It takes brains and guts to win wars."

We have the guts. Now, we need to use our brains and develop ways to fight these cowardly sonsofbitches and minimize the damage to civilians and our own people while maximizing the damage to the enemy.

 

[Big Don]

Mac Arthur's thoughts on there being no substitute for victory are pretty good to remember as well...

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Bob, I don't know what he would say, but, given his speeches, it wouldn't be politically correct.

George never was PC, he called it like he saw it and he was pretty blunt and usually right (not always, but usually).

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I don't know!

It's a Catch 22!

What could be done is more support from the international community. Why aren't they raising a fuss over this mess the way they would if the US were responsible for the kids death?

What about the media? Why aren't they covering this the same way they would if the US military had been responsible for the kids death?

Why are they only outraged when we do it on accident and not when they do it on purpose?

Because no matter what the US does, it's wrong. Send them food, they'll whine we didn't include wine on the menu.

 

[Big Don]

Patton was a poet.

Returning to the OP, and the tactics our enemy are now using against us, which is often our own press as much as their bullets, what can we do?

The answer is right there.
"But there is one thing to remember. In war, it takes more than the desire to fight to win. You've got to have more than guts to lick the enemy. You must also have brains. It takes brains and guts to win wars."

We have the guts. Now, we need to use our brains and develop ways to fight these cowardly sonsofbitches and minimize the damage to civilians and our own people while maximizing the damage to the enemy.

We need a ROE that allows us to take out a Mosque if the slimy cowards are hiding in there shooting at us.
We need a doctrine of fighting to win.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

No, we need a ROE that says "we're getting shot at from -your- mosque. You send in your people and make them stop, otherwise we're going to pull back, get as many civilians as we can out, and drop a JDAM on the place while having those *********** embeded reporters record and broadcast it live to the world."