Can it be done? Should it be done?

[jobo]

I believe I actually said there were other ways to achieve the benefits. And learning the slow movement doesn't mess up power generation. We use slow movements a lot in life, so the slow movement is more applicable to normal life than to MA, but even in MA we sometimes need slow movements, especially in grappling, where we may need to use slow power at times to overcome resistance, and use explosive power at other times (both can be applied, depending upon the situation).

yoga has even slower movement that normal life, that if they move at all. Yes it does, you training you nervous system to work the slow twitch endurance muscle fibres,rather than the fast twitch you need for power generation
.
, its based to the most part on isometrics ,which increases endurance strengh in very limited ranges of motion, where as power generation requires fast movement in full the full range of motion .

there is no such thing as slow power, power is fast movement or rather the more powerful you are the faster you can move a resistance and that requires training you fast twitch muscles

 

[Gerry Seymour]

yoga has even slower movement that normal life, that if they move at all. Yes it does, its based to the most part on isometrics ,which increases strengh in very limited ranges of motion, where as power generation requires fast movement and,stretch full the full range of motion .

there is no such thing as slow power, power is fast movement or rather the more powerful you are the faster you can move a resistance

Sometimes slow movements can be used to overcome resistance, and to resist. I do it sometimes when ground grappling. Explosive movements (even small ones) are more common for breaking resistance, but they aren't the only option.

I understand the concept of isometrics. I'm not aware of research that shows that mild isometric development actually inhibits explosive power - it just fails to develop it, so far as I know. And, yes, the yoga movements are (usually) slower than normal movements. That's what makes them stress the support muscles in ways that fast movement simply cannot. Those support muscles are part of the injury avoidance I was talking about earlier.

 

[jobo]

Sometimes slow movements can be used to overcome resistance, and to resist. I do it sometimes when ground grappling. Explosive movements (even small ones) are more common for breaking resistance, but they aren't the only option.

I understand the concept of isometrics. I'm not aware of research that shows that mild isometric development actually inhibits explosive power - it just fails to develop it, so far as I know. And, yes, the yoga movements are (usually) slower than normal movements. That's what makes them stress the support muscles in ways that fast movement simply cannot. Those support muscles are part of the injury avoidance I was talking about earlier.

so we agree, that yoga is an endurance exercise that promotes slow movement and does nothing at all to increase power. It is therefore. of very little used in the striking arts, which is more or less what i said to the op, before you told me i was wrong

 

[Gerry Seymour]

so we agree, that yoga is an endurance exercise that promotes slow movement and does nothing at all to increase power. It is therefore. of very little used in the striking arts, which is more or less what i said to the op, before you told me i was wrong

It has indirect benefits, which was my original point. No, it's not going to improve striking speed or power. But it will probably (depending upon the person's existing development) improve stability and mobility in the leg joints, which can facilitate the power development and help protect from injury. It doesn't develop the power, but makes it easier to do so, in some cases.

 

[jobo]

It has indirect benefits, which was my original point. No, it's not going to improve striking speed or power. But it will probably (depending upon the person's existing development) improve stability and mobility in the leg joints, which can facilitate the power development and help protect from injury. It doesn't develop the power, but makes it easier to do so, in some cases.

how does holding you leg joints in one position for an extended period of time Improve mobility, mobility requires an ability to move, moving it through the full range of motion will do so. How does that work with yoga?

 

[jobo]

It has indirect benefits, which was my original point. No, it's not going to improve striking speed or power. But it will probably (depending upon the person's existing development) improve stability and mobility in the leg joints, which can facilitate the power development and help protect from injury. It doesn't develop the power, but makes it easier to do so, in some cases.

i didn't tell her it had no benefits, i told her that doing months of yoga was no the best way of preparing for a striking ma.

the best way to prepare for a striking ma, is to do the ma and develop your physical condition as you go

 

[Gerry Seymour]

how does holding you leg joints in one position for an extended period of time Improve mobility, mobility requires an ability to move, moving it through the full range of motion will do so. How does that work with yoga?

The stretching increases mobility. The holding positions (aside from any stretches being held) puts the support muscles under stress.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

i didn't tell her it had no benefits, i told her that doing months of yoga was no the best way of preparing for a striking ma.

the best way to prepare for a striking ma, is to do the ma and develop your physical condition as you go

I didn't disagree with any of that. You stated yoga had slight to nonexistent benefits. Depending upon the needs of the individual, it can have significant benefit.

 

[jobo]

The stretching increases mobility. The holding positions (aside from any stretches being held) puts the support muscles under stress.

mobility mean movement, you increase your range of movement through movement, you can increase flexability by doing holds, but not mobility

 

[Gerry Seymour]

mobility mean movement, you increase your range of movement through movement, you can increase flexability by doing holds, but not mobility

I repeat - the stretching increases mobility. Flexibility does lend to mobility of the joint, and thus to the mobility of the person.

 

[srztanjur]

"its teaches you nervous system to move your limbs slowly or not at all"

Okay, lol, as a neuroscience and physiology student, no. That's ridiculous. That's not how the nervous system works.

 

[jobo]

"its teaches you nervous system to move your limbs slowly or not at all"

Okay, lol, as a neuroscience and physiology student, no. That's ridiculous. That's not how the nervous system works.

really, fast movement is dependent on estabishing a good nurial connection with your fast twitch muscles, that means repeated fast and powerful movements. Yoga builds up the nurial connection your slow twitch muscles and even more as it only requires them to move very slowly you become very adapt as,err moving slowly, that becomes you default setting

 

[Gerry Seymour]

really, fast movement is dependent on estabishing a good nurial connection with your fast twitch muscles, that means repeated fast and powerful movements. Yoga builds up the nurial connection your slow twitch muscles and even more as it only requires them to move very slowly you become very adapt as,err moving slowly, that becomes you default setting

If that were true, world-class sprinters would stop walking, and would only ever sit or run. As it turns out, our nervous systems can learn more than one type of motion for each muscle group.

 

[jobo]

If that were true, world-class sprinters would stop walking, and would only ever sit or run. As it turns out, our nervous systems can learn more than one type of motion for each muscle group.

in deed but she isn't suggesting learning more than one, ie just yoga. You can't train you NS to do two things at once, or rather you can but it will do nether very well. That's why athletes use period training, id be very suprised if any world class sprinters included lying on their back with their leg in the air for an hour as part of their going fast training, I'm betting they spend a lot of time going fast?

 

[JR 137]

in deed but she isn't suggesting learning more than one, ie just yoga. You can't train you NS to do two things at once, or rather you can but it will do nether very well. That's why athletes use period training, id be very suprised if any world class sprinters included lying on their back with their leg in the air for an hour as part of their going fast training, I'm betting they spend a lot of time going fast?

They spend a lot of time doing a lot of things. While I have no direct evidence to state this, nor do any desire to look for it, Usain Bolt (or anyone else) doesn't spend his entire training sessions doing 100m dashes over and over. I've been around more than enough high level sprinters to know this. I've also never heard any sprinter nor any other high level athlete who knew what they were talking about say yoga is a waste of time because it only trains slow twitch fibers and not fast twitch fibers.

And it's not as simple as training fast twitch vs slow twitch fibers, you can only train one type at a time, etc. You're taking a way too simplistic view on it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

in deed but she isn't suggesting learning more than one, ie just yoga. You can't train you NS to do two things at once, or rather you can but it will do nether very well. That's why athletes use period training, id be very suprised if any world class sprinters included lying on their back with their leg in the air for an hour as part of their going fast training, I'm betting they spend a lot of time going fast?

You were the one who put forth that the one training would be harmful to the end point (something intended for later training). If you'd said it wouldn't help much, I'd have had no problem. But that's not the stance you took - you asserted that yoga would be of no use, then later asserted it would be counter-productive. Both are contrary to evidence available.

 

[srztanjur]

"really, fast movement is dependent on estabishing a good nurial connection with your fast twitch muscles, that means repeated fast and powerful movements."

No, what you're thinking of is how muscles tend to /grow/ when the nerves that activate them are used more. That is /not/ to say that training slow twitch muscles disrupts the nervous system's ability to send signals to fast twitch muscles. They don't even use the same afferent neurons.

Edit:

"You can't train you NS to do two things at once, or rather you can but it will do nether very well."

This is /also/ untrue. Again -- the nerves that go to slow twitch and fast twitch muscles do /not/ share nerve pathways. They are not activated by the same interneurons. They don't share reflexes.

 

[JR 137]

"really, fast movement is dependent on estabishing a good nurial connection with your fast twitch muscles, that means repeated fast and powerful movements."

No, what you're thinking of is how muscles tend to /grow/ when the nerves that activate them are used more. That is /not/ to say that training slow twitch muscles disrupts the nervous system's ability to send signals to fast twitch muscles. They don't even use the same afferent neurons.

Edit:

"You can't train you NS to do two things at once, or rather you can but it will do nether very well."

This is /also/ untrue. Again -- the nerves that go to slow twitch and fast twitch muscles do /not/ share nerve pathways. They are not activated by the same interneurons. They don't share reflexes.

Where'd you find that information from? I've taken quite a few anatomy, physiology, and exercise physiology courses, at both the undergraduate and graduate level, and I've never come across anything you've just said.

 

[srztanjur]

Anatomy and Physiology: Unity of Form and Function, by Saladin. Chapter 15, section III, sub-sections B and C; section IV, all sub-sections.

Edit: those are the sections covering innervation by the somatic nervous system, including reflexes.

Edit: nerve branches are divided functionally. There is overlap between different nerve branches. Interneurons may recruit more of these branches, depending on the motor program. This is achieved by activating more afferent fibers. It is not, however as was proposed: that the training of one fiber interferes with the activation of another. Having done anatomy and physiology courses yourself, I hope you will agree -- the nervous system's training process is entirely within the central nervous system, not the peripheral nervous system.

 

[JR 137]

Anatomy and Physiology: Unity of Form and Function, by Saladin. Chapter 15, section III, sub-sections B and C; section IV, all sub-sections.

Edit: those are the sections covering innervation by the somatic nervous system, including reflexes.

Edit: nerve branches are divided functionally. There is overlap between different nerve branches. Interneurons may recruit more of these branches, depending on the motor program. This is achieved by activating more afferent fibers. It is not, however as was proposed: that the training of one fiber interferes with the activation of another. Having done anatomy and physiology courses yourself, I hope you will agree -- the nervous system's training process is entirely within the central nervous system, not the peripheral nervous system.

I agree with this post. I don't know the book you're quoting, but it sounds like a direct quote and is in line with what I've learned.

Your previous post sounded to me like you were saying fast twitch and slow twitch impulses are controlled by separate nerves altogether, rather than separate branches of the same nerves, which is what your source is basically saying.

In this context, yes, the training process is within the CNS, not the PNS. However, the PNS will grow more branches and innervation points for finer motor control and better fiber recruitment, so one could make the argument that you're training both. I'm really splitting hairs with that one though

You mentioned reflexes in your previous post also. Reflexes are not controlled by the brain; they're controlled by interneurons in the spinal cord. For example, if you put your hand on a hot stove, your brain doesn't tell your hand to move. The pain impulse gets to the spinal cord, an interneuron in the spinal cord* then sends an impulse to the arm and hand to move. The pain impulse is simultaneously sent to the brain, but by this point the reflex action has already been initiated. This is why there's a very slight delay in moving away and actually feeling the pain. The affarent nerves aren't myelinated, making by them slower than efferent nerves which are myelinated. An example I use is unexpectedly putting your hands under scalding water; you pull your hands away then feel the pain afterward.

*I can't remember the name of the structure in the spinal cord that controls reflexes but I think it's the s.g. I also can't remember what s.g. stands for.

Thanks for the trip down neurology lane. I think I broke my brain

Edit: Actually, I think the s.g. determines if the impulse will be passed onto the brain or block it. I don't remember, it was a while ago.