Bujinkan and Genbukan

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Tenjindo

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I was wondering if anyone out could tell me what is the conflict between Hatsumi soke and Tanemura sensei. Way did Tanemura leave and why does he claim to be soke of some of the same ryuha that Hatsumi soke is soke of. I have respect for both of these men and think very highly of them; I just want to know who is the true soke of the nine ryuha. I myself have trained in the bujinkan system, but just wanted to know what caused two great Grandmasters to split and go their seperate ways.
 
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Chappers

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There is no conflict as such and as far as i am aware they are still good friends just blokes with different ideals!!
 

Kreth

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I think the only people that can answer this question would be the two involved. This topic has been rehashed on several forums, with no clear answer. Anything from either Bujinkan or Genbukan members is mere speculation.
From what I understand, the explanation of the "duplicate" claims is this: Tanemura-san trained and received these titles from students of Takamatsu other than Hatsumi-sensei.

Jeff
 

George Kohler

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Tenjindo said:
I was wondering if anyone out could tell me what is the conflict between Hatsumi soke and Tanemura sensei. Way did Tanemura leave...

Here is an article http://www.genbukan.ca/articles/tanemura_talks.html

Last year, when I was in Japan, Tanemura Sensei said that he had not seen Hatsumi Sensei since he left the Bujinkan, but there was still a strong family bond between the two families.
 
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Chappers

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Thats a very good article, all the way through he keeps away from any contraversial points and does not slag off the bujinkan.
 

DWeidman

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Chappers said:
There is no conflict as such and as far as i am aware they are still good friends just blokes with different ideals!!
I guess I get to be the ogre again... *sighs*

This reminds me to repost something I say all the time (and needs to be repeated ad nauseamon boards):

If you don't know - don't answer.

Simple really...

-Daniel

PS - In case you are wondering why "Chappers" post is quoted here - I would say that unless he has evidence that they are "still good friends" - it seems as though this is an unfounded statement...
 
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Chappers

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Dan,

How do YOU know what my source is? how do you know where i get my info from?
 
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Tenjindo

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George Kohler said:
Here is an article http://www.genbukan.ca/articles/tanemura_talks.html

Last year, when I was in Japan, Tanemura Sensei said that he had not seen Hatsumi Sensei since he left the Bujinkan, but there was still a strong family bond between the two families.
The article was very insightful and explained alot about the reason why the two decided to go their seperate ways. I am still a little stumped on the subject of which one of these Grandmaster are the true soke of the 9 ryuha.
 
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Chappers

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Well i am in the bujinkan so for me its Hatsumi, obviously George might think differently, but then its what your taught i suppose, until i am taught anything different then its the boss, both orgs provide excellant training though!!
 

DWeidman

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Chappers said:
Dan,

How do YOU know what my source is? how do you know where i get my info from?
I don't. At 3rd kyu, however, I suspect you don't have a relationship with Hatsumi that spans 30 yrs.

This - however - is your chance to SHINE, dood.

List your source(s) - and we can all be amazed (note - it should be Hatsumi...)...

Ball is in your court...

-Daniel

PS - Don't worry - I don't expect you to answer.
 
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Chappers

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Danny,

My sources are exactly that, if i am told something that comes back from japan then i tend to believe that more than you, or are you just offended a lowly 3rd kyu might have a bit more info than you? I was initially taking you seriously but then i remembered the name, one of e-budo's best trolls i see!! Can never help yourself but jump in there to pull others apart, even the new ones, as a sensei i thought you were supposed to help others not tear them to bits Danny, see you didnt stay long on Kutaki, too intellectual for you was it? oh well you can stick to BUJINTECH!!!
 

Cryozombie

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Elizium

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I can only say one thing about all of this and that is...


Who cares. Not me. Next troll debate please.
 

DWeidman

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Chappers said:
Danny,

My sources are exactly that, if i am told something that comes back from japan then i tend to believe that more than you, or are you just offended a lowly 3rd kyu might have a bit more info than you? I was initially taking you seriously but then i remembered the name, one of e-budo's best trolls i see!! Can never help yourself but jump in there to pull others apart, even the new ones, as a sensei i thought you were supposed to help others not tear them to bits Danny, see you didnt stay long on Kutaki, too intellectual for you was it? oh well you can stick to BUJINTECH!!!
Danny? Apparently you have read E-budo...

Am I really being accused of being a troll???

I am glad you learned how to use Google... *sighs*

Seriously - who told you Hatsumi and Tanemura are "still good friends".

George - can you confirm this? Don?

Chappers - name your source(s) or tuck your tail and run...

Still waiting -

-Daniel <---- Note the name. If you can google my name - then you can spell it right.
 

George Kohler

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Hi Daniel,

As I stated earlier, Tanemura Sensei has not seen or spoken to Hatsumi Sensei since he left the Bujinkan. This was from a conversation with him in his car when he picked John Lindsey, Jonathan Singer (a student of John Lindsey's) and me up from the Narita Airport in June 2003.
 

DWeidman

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George Kohler said:
Hi Daniel,

As I stated earlier, Tanemura Sensei has not seen or spoken to Hatsumi Sensei since he left the Bujinkan. This was from a conversation with him in his car when he picked John Lindsey, Jonathan Singer (a student of John Lindsey's) and me up from the Narita Airport in June 2003.
Thanks George :)

So... would it be fair to say that they are NOT "still good friends" based on that information?

-Daniel

PS - that is what I understood as well (although I didn't have any direct confirmation).

PPS - Chappers? Your move ...
 

George Kohler

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DWeidman said:
Thanks George :)

So... would it be fair to say that they are NOT "still good friends" based on that information?

From what I understood from Tanemura Sensei, they (the Tanemura Family and the Hatsumi Family) still have a strong family bond. Since they are family (distant cousins - not blood related) I don't think they would call each other friends. BTW, after Hatsumi Sensei's father passed away, Tanemura Sadatsune (Tanemura Sensei's father) became a mentor to the young Hatsumi Yoshiaki.
 
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Elizium

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To me it seems like a matter between Hatsumi and Tanamura to sort out and for us not to discuss. Thr4 favct that the Bujinkan and the Genbukan are different in ways of teaching and how each system differs slightly, makes taijutsu so unique.


After all, how many dojo Soke's went out on their own to start thier system based on the teachings of their last grandmaster throughout Japan? Must have been a lot as their are scrolls of history saying this was taught here and that was taught by that family. It is not like one day some Jsapanese man woke up and suddenly ended up being a soke of his own system (may happen today with Koga:rolleyes: and some American hick Ryu, but not back then).

Me personally, I see the split between Tanamura and Hatsumi as a natural one. Genbukan and Bujinkan will continue in many forms in the future regardless of what splits or family feuds happen. That dojo has stemmed from that dojo and so on and so forth. It is only in the public eye due to the closeness of the Internet and BB places like Martialtalk and e-budo making it personal and talked about. But it seems no one is prepared to talk of the splits in everyone elses lives, so why should we discuss theirs on here?
 

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