Breaking objects with fists

[Kane]

Tae Kwon Do is the first striking arts I have ever done. I've been doing it for about an year now.

Breaking wood by kicking is pretty easy. I did it on my second week of white belt third try. Now, it is easy to break on my first tries. But only by kicking.

Now breaking the same wood with my fists is much harder, let alone any part of my arm. How come I can't break wood with my hands, but with my feet? I am pretty strong pain resistance, but no matter how hard I punch, I can't seem to break objects with my fists. Why is that? How can it be so much more easier to break by kicking than punching.

When I was a kid, I used to punch brick walls for no reason (or to prove to my freinds how resilient I am) and not have much pain at all. But no breaking, why? Maybe it's because I have done too much grappling. But there has to be some technique to it.

 

[Han-Mi]

Wow, a real newb to the art of striking with your hands still huh? Well, your right, there is a lot of technique to all the hand and arm techniques, that's why they are called techniques:wink2:. Also, your legs are much stronger than your arms, so it is natural that it is easier to break with a kick.
As far as breaking with a punch is concerned, you must snap your punch. you shouldn't have to move the rest of your body too much, just your arm. A lot of times people will lean into the punch too much, putting a brunt force on the board that is easily slighted to another direction. don't get ahead of your strike, you want to lead with your point of contact.
Truthfully, there is way too much stuff to go through on a message board, ask your instructor, and try strating out with a good elbow strike, or palm strike, they are easier.

Just remember to snap just beyond the target.

 

[terryl965]

Well when I teach people to break with a fist or palm strike, I tend to tell them to take atleast two pre strike's at it before you actually hit the broad for the simple reason to make sure you are center and to always follow through, most time's it not the power but the follow through every student that can't break ussally stop at the point of contact and that will only weeken the blow, remember to always go through the break atleast three inches past the point of impact. This has always worked for me and my students....God bless America

 

[Tae Kwon Doughboy]

I chose to do a palm strike rather than using a fist. I am much more comfortable with that because my palm doesn't complain! Everyone else I tested with chose the hammer fist. I just don't seem to be able to get as much leverage and power with a hammer fist as I can a palm strike.

Why is it easier to break with a foot than a hand? Mostly physics with a little mind over matter mixed in for good measure. A simple board is no match for either!

Physics: mass, speed and power. The legs weigh more, have more power and can generate great speed.

Mind: if you believe you can do it you most likely will. If you don't believe you can you probably won't.

When setting up the board and distance I put my arm above the board so I could put my palm a few inches past it. Then when it comes time to break I look at the board only as a target to aim for. The real target is behind the board. The board is just in the way. It has no choice but to give way.

The person holding the board can be a major factor too. Hopefully they have been around long enough to know what they are doing. The more solid they hold the board the easier it is too break, especially if the person breaking lacks speed. They can bend the board to make harder or easier too. I've seen this done for small children.

Striking a board straight on is much more effective than a glancing blow. Remember this is your break, not the board holder's. Be respectful but don't be shy when it comes to instructing them to hold it at the height and angle you want. Figure out exactly where you want it in advance.

Good luck!

 

[TigerWoman]

I agree with Han Mi on this, its better to be taught by your instructor. If you practice on your own, and don't understand the written instructions here (not that they weren't right) you can do damage to your hand, wrist etc. Then it might take a long time to heal. At any case, the palm strike is usually taught first. GO SLOW on this learning thing, don't rush into anything without your instructor. He/she is there to guide you. TW

 

[Marginal]

Also keep in mind that the technique makes a lot of difference. If you're just arm punching (punching while only trying to generate power by using the muscles in your arms) you're going to have a feeble punch no matter how much you condition your hand, or what part of the hand or arm you're using. A strong punch's power comes from the hip.

 

[kwanjang]

In breaking any objects, it is essential to be safe first. This means that you should be over age 18, because long bones grow to about this age and should not be traumatized until they are fully matured. This is especially true for punching boards or bricks, because the growing plates are at the ends of long bones (knuckles). Start with the palm strike or hammer fist.

The hammer fist is easier to do for most people, because the movement is natural to them. You use similar movement (arm swinging) when walking. When doing a palm strike, most people push. That is not in accord with the rules of speed and power.

Like someone else suggested, you need to learn from a competent instructor, as this is too hard to "teach" in a forum. Suffice it to say that you can get permanently injured by doing it wrong just once, even though the injury might not show up until much later.

Breaking often uses partners to hold boards. These partners are unpredictable and may move; hence, any "trying" will almost never help as the actual break is done faster and the target may not be where it was when you began the strike (holders moving). It is best to allow your brain to take over completely, because it will naturally compensate for these problems much faster than you can "think" about it. Focus only on completing the break, and your brain will do the rest. Incidentally, this also works well to score points in sparring... focus totally on getting a point, and your brain will help you do it (if your arsenal of technique and ability is adequate). "Trying" to do these things will not help, be relaxed.

If you are not familiar with boards, you may not be able to tell if a board is dangerous or not. Loose knots may end up popping out, and they can be as sharp as a razor if they are planed on the angle. Protective eye wear should be used by the holders. FWIW, most people will not head these warnings; but, in more than fifty years of training, I have seen serious injuries happen first hand.

A simple theory of power: To gain maximum speed and power in a strike, it should be generated from the largest joint to the smallest joint, in order, without interuption. Example: A back hand strike should start from the waist rotation, followed by upper torso rotation, followed by upper arm swing, followed by lower arm extension, followed by wrist extension, and finally extending the finger joints to make the slap. Stop the action at any time, and you will begin the next action from that point (which would diminish your ability to generate maximum power). The strike action should resemble the action of a bullwhip.

 

[Anna Bastiaans]

I agree with what already is posted on this thread. From my experience, the most important two factors in a successful break are:1) imagining the target beyond the board, 2) hip rotation - crucial! I learned it the hard way, since I'm quite petite (1.57 m, 49 kg), and without making the breakes from my hip I woudn't be able to break anything with my arms (legs are stronger, as you said). Try to work on this one, and remember that many TKD schools don't require break tests until the blue belt for a reason - the techinque is usually not good enogh until then.

Anna.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Folks:

I don't want to detract from the discussion regarding the use of the body. I would like to raise a question regarding materials. By this I don't mean necessarily the size or orientation of a given material. Rather I am wondering if people have comments regarding what materials they favor breaking at what point in their development. For instance how do people feel about re-breakable boards compared to pine boards? When would one (if ever) introduce breaking 2" concrete or clay tiles? What about novel items such as beer bottles, coconuts or natural stone? Again, I am not asking anyone to advocate one over another, but hope that if people have had experiences with one sort of material as compared to another, maybe they could share, yes?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[SenseiGR]

There's a lot of good advice here about HOW to break, but no one's asked WHY. Anyone here been attacked by a brick or board?


Sure, I've broken stuff, too, but I consider it just a show for the tourists.
Maybe it gives young or insecure martial arts confidence in themselves.
Better you should concentrate on how to hit a person who's fighting back.
My sensei contends there's no correlation between breaking and karate, and I guarantee you no one wants to get hit by him.

 

[glad2bhere]

My sense is that breaking is simply a more primitive way of gauging to what degree a person is pulling all the variables of striking together. I don't look at it as a confidence builder though I know some teachers purport to use it this way. In our days of modern electrics, technology has provided us with gadgets that we can attach to body bags and meter increments of force and maybe get an idea of how we are doing as far as consistently developing sufficient power. If I were going to use breaking for myself, I think I would select a particular material of given dimensions and density and begin with those techniques with which I have greatest confidence (using the same amount or number of items) working towards those techniques with which it is a bit more awkward to generate significant force or velocity. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[terryl965]

There's a lot of good advice here about HOW to break, but no one's asked WHY. Anyone here been attacked by a brick or board?


Sure, I've broken stuff, too, but I consider it just a show for the tourists.
Maybe it gives young or insecure martial arts confidence in themselves.
Better you should concentrate on how to hit a person who's fighting back.
My sensei contends there's no correlation between breaking and karate, and I guarantee you no one wants to get hit by him.

The old saying (bricks don't hit back) SensieGR every person that is here on Martial Talk can hit someone with so much force they would not like it,not saying your instructor can't hit hard but I believe everyone that has been around in the Art for many years can hit and do damage... But the question is how to break without getting hurt not a contest of who its harder,(that is like a child my dad stronger than your) to steal from another.... and yes I have been attack by a board and it hit pretty damm hard, of course there was that other person swinging it at me

... God Bless America

 

[Marginal]

For instance how do people feel about re-breakable boards compared to pine boards? When would one (if ever) introduce breaking 2" concrete or clay tiles? What about novel items such as beer bottles, coconuts or natural stone?

I would prefer to hit a pine board over a rebreakable. Rebreakables only give in one place, and they have a tendency to stick together more tenaciously than a pine board does.

I'm going to have to start thinking about those clay tiles soon. Required break a bit further up the testing chain. Don't really have much interest in breaking bottles, gasoline cans, rocks etc. They all demonstrate the same principles as breaking a pine board requires, but they up the risks IMO.

 

[TigerWoman]

Breaking is a gauge at what a martial artist is capable of. I really don't want to injure someone to find out. For example, I know I can palm strike or knife hand a patio brick. I had to do alot of focus training, conditioning, strength training, technique training to get to that point and more so for the knife. So, that does tell me is that I CAN do major damage with a palm and if I go all the way on someone's nose, no doubt kill them. Comments like being attacked by a board are silly but if you don't have the required force and focus whatever force you do exert will come back at you. Breaking boards/bricks proves power.period.unless you actually want to injure someone badly to prove it.

Re-breakables are good for learning. The only way they can be broken is in the middle and focus, technique, shifting of power all have to be there. Some can be hard to break when they are new. We use rebreakables for tests until green belt. A white belt breaks with a step side, a yellow belt with a hopping side and it gets more difficult, more breaks required, as rank progresses. It is important in knowing that you are capable of breaking. Confidence helps you to learn further. Breaking also give a finite goal. "I will practice this spin side (turn back) kick until I perfect it by breaking." then you go on to the next goal. Eventually you put all these techniques together in sparring. When I throw a side kick, I then know it will hurt, if not break when I go full force. A good gauge to know, when "playing".

 

[kwanjang]

Dear Folks:

I don't want to detract from the discussion regarding the use of the body. I would like to raise a question regarding materials. By this I don't mean necessarily the size or orientation of a given material. Rather I am wondering if people have comments regarding what materials they favor breaking at what point in their development. For instance how do people feel about re-breakable boards compared to pine boards? When would one (if ever) introduce breaking 2" concrete or clay tiles? What about novel items such as beer bottles, coconuts or natural stone? Again, I am not asking anyone to advocate one over another, but hope that if people have had experiences with one sort of material as compared to another, maybe they could share, yes?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Hello Bruce:
I no longer use glass items to break, as there is just too much chance of serious injury when things go awry. As one reader mentioned, boards and brick don't hit back, but I do think they teach a good lesson on focus and speed etc. etc. In some cases, the bite of a "Non Break" can be as bad as a sucker punch.

No disrespect meant. Why do we break, why do we do forms, why do we do self defense techniques??? Non of these things relate to fighting on the street, they are simply tools to help better prepare us for whatever might happen. Just as a boxer shadow fights, pummels the speed bag, and skips rope. None of these can be compared to real fighting, but they DO have value in preparing for that eventuality.

Breaking can also serve a real purpose. I have seen young ladies come right out of their shell after a successful break. Wonderful to see the exhuberance Breaking can also be real useful in ensuring focus and kime are on target. In my school, breaking is part of testing, and it has always been a very exciting part of the test. In fact, I might even fail those who are unable to break, because it surely points out problem areas. I respect those who don't break as much as any other, and the whole point of breaking is moot if one has found a better way to "test" capability.

As we noted by the immense popularity of the breaking demos I did at the USKMAF seminars over the past years, there are many folks who can see the value of breaking. The heavy hand breaking workshop in the parking lot was so popular that the hotel folks thought there was a riot outside We had a blast, and many folks left feeling great because they accomplished something they had never thought possible.

 

[Marginal]

So, that does tell me is that I CAN do major damage with a palm and if I go all the way on someone's nose, no doubt kill them.

That's physically impossible unless you're crushing their skull Kill Bill style along with the nose.

 

[Tae Kwon Doughboy]

how do people feel about re-breakable boards compared to pine boards?

I practice with a black re-breakable for the same reasons Marginal prefers not to use them. They require more focus and technique than a pine board.

After practicing with the black re-breakable, I think it is rated at 2.5 boards, there should be no problems breaking a single pine board in a test.

 

[MichiganTKD]

I actually like practicing various techniques on trees to condition my hands and develop penetrating power. Best to use soft techniques like palmheel, knife hand, and hammerfist. Nothing quite like watching a tree and its leaves shake as you hit it.

 

[kik]

I think everyone here has given a lot of valuable advice to take into consideration. But I do have one small question for everyone. When I went for my 1st Dan I was asked to do an immediate side kick on 2 1" pine boards and then to do a front roll and a hammer fist on a 2' patio block. Then on my 2nd Dan I was asked to do a front punch through 4 1" pine boards and then go into a horse stance and punch down through 2 full cinder blocks, So my question is How come I wasnt asked to do any breaking for my 3rd Dan? Is it because I already proved that I can perform the techniques?

Thanks for any replies.
kik

 

[terryl965]

I think everyone here has given a lot of valuable advice to take into consideration. But I do have one small question for everyone. When I went for my 1st Dan I was asked to do an immediate side kick on 2 1" pine boards and then to do a front roll and a hammer fist on a 2' patio block. Then on my 2nd Dan I was asked to do a front punch through 4 1" pine boards and then go into a horse stance and punch down through 2 full cinder blocks, So my question is How come I wasnt asked to do any breaking for my 3rd Dan? Is it because I already proved that I can perform the techniques?

Thanks for any replies.
kik

Well each individual instructors run there test differently, there are no set formula's to testing only perameters set by the ancients, we here in recent times ussally follows the same step as did are instructors. Maybe your instructor knows your talent and did not see the importance of you doing more breaks for your 3rd DAN test.... God Bless America