Thanks for the input. It is not my intention to change the kata rather it is my wish to change what I am doing to the kata. Everything I do has purpose and fits in with everything else I do, if I can replace my own kata with better kata then that is great. Moving back and away has great value when it can be used and then there are times when it can't(ie: confined spaces) so it is not my intention to alter kata to suit the situation rather to select the right kata for the situation. I realise Ninjutsu may not have all the answers but that is fine everything it does have can be put to good use so any help is greatly appreciated. Since my resources are severely limited the best course of action I have is simply to ask.
Can you think of a kata or two which fit the bill?
Hmm, I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about here.... One of the points of learning a martial art is to move past what "you" want, or think is best, and adopt the teachings of the art itself. Changing things because "well, I just think that moving back is limited" really misses the point of learning the art in the first place, as you are ignoring what it's trying to teach you. There's really nothing about "what you are doing
to the kata", as you don't really do anything "to" it, until you have actually understood it. That said, when you do understand what the kata is teaching, then you are free to adapt it... for instance, with Jumonji no Kata, you may find that moving forward to the outside keeps with the ideals of the kata (in terms of maintaining distance and angling to keep you safe while allowing a counter strike), whereas moving forward or sideways to the inside doesn't.
So here's a fun, "modern" version that employs your wanting to find something that moves forward, while maintaining the lessons of Jumonji no Kata:
Uke: Orthodox "boxer" pose, left leg forward. Jab to the face with your lead hand.
Tori: Short "street" version of Jumonji no Kamae, evade by angling forward to the right as you deflect the punch with your right (lead) hand, then punch to the floating ribs with a left (rear) punch. Bring your left hand up on the outside of Uke's arm/shoulder, and push them away as you gain distance.
Uke: Step in towards Tori and punch to the head with a right hook/haymaker
Tori: Evade by dropping under Uke's punch as you move forward and to the left, using your left hand to help "guide" or deflect the punch past. Strike to the floating ribs with a right punch, then come up on the outside, and push Uke away.
As you can see, most of Jumonji no Kata's lessons are preserved here (while some, such as constant use of the same hand, are necessarily left out). A controlling or knockout finish can always be added as well, and the punches (with sufficient hand conditioning!) can be swapped for Shito Ken, although for a "street" technique, I'd most likely keep it as a fist.
When it comes to looking for a kata that uses a forward action, think of ones like Seion from Kukishinden Ryu, Kyogi from Koto Ryu, and so on. They're there, but by necessity they are different kata. Trying to make one kata the answer to everything, or have it as the basis for answers to everything just doesn't work.
Perhaps I need to give a better example.
I hold in my hand a translation for Kap-pi kata. Attack: wide thumb knuckle strike to the temple. Defence: left forearm jamming-block and right inside sword-hand strike to the neck...step with a left inside sword-hand strike to the other side of the neck...leap back away.
This kata is fine for the thumb knuckle strike to the temple but I have to ask the question..Is it the "right" kata to use for a low punch to the ribs? Since I can't possibly answer that question because it's only "real Ninjutsu" if a real Ninja tells me it is, I have two choices, get the "right" kata or just do my own thing.
So doing my own thing might be varying the kata to a defence against a low attack but keeping the sword hands to the neck or perhaps completely scrapping the sword hands and doing two solar plexus punches instead. Neither option is Ninjutsu but at the end of the day I have to do something.
A better option is to find the "right" kata(if there is one) and that's what I am trying to do here.
My apologies for revealing info about Kap-pi which may be inappropriate for an internet forum but I tried in a couple of posts already to paint the picture without resorting to Ninjutsu intel.
That version of Kappi is only found in one organisation, and is not a "translation" of the kata, it is a henka application of the kata against an attack, rather than as an offensive action as it appears in the scroll itself (for the record, the direct translations I've seen for Kappi basically say "Two complete Ura Shuto to the neck". That's it.). There are reasons that it was designed that way (in the organisation you got it from), but I'm not going into that on a forum here.
Once again, if you are looking for specific kata dealing with low punches, they exist as well. I'm thinking some kata in Takagi Yoshin Ryu, some Shinden Fudo Ryu, some in Gyokko Ryu, and even some in Koto Ryu. Look to Kodachi defences against thrusts to the body as a starting point.
In terms of whether or not what you're doing is 'Kappi', no, it's not. If you look to the name, "Kappi" refers to "draw together", or "pack together and fly". You're not drawing or packing together with the low punches, or leaping (flying) to escape at the end either.
Sweet thanks Greg, sure it helps.
Sorry to Ninja your thread Razor, I didn't realise asking for a kata or two which include Boshi ken, Shito ken or something equally groovy would be such an ordeal.
Ah, only a kata or two that include Boshi Ken/Shito Ken? That's easy! Which system are you thinking of? Togakure Ryu has Sayu Kumogakure, for instance, Gyokko Ryu uses Shito Ken quite a bit, as does Koto Ryu, it's very popular in Kukishinden Ryu, is found in Takagi Yoshin Ryu.... but honestly, I didn't get that request from your posts.
Thanks, I didn't realise the subtle difference in meaning, and wasn't really sure if they were interchangeable or not.
Not a problem. You may also come across terms such as "Yubi Ken", basically literally "thumb fist", or "Moguri Ken", "burrowing fist", and a few others.... just to keep you on your toes!
Something that may be stated, though, is that there are reasons for the various fists being preferred by one system or another. You may note that many kamae in Gyokko Ryu feature a Shito Ken (Jumonji, Ichimonji, Hicho, their form of Doko), and in each instance the thumb is pointing straight upwards. One of the associated spiritual teachings of Gyokko Ryu teaches that your energy travels through your thumbs, and you are directing that energy towards Heaven.
Oh, and while I'm here, the kata you were referring to in your initial post is Jumonji no Kata, rather than Jumonji no Kamae. There is a sequence of movements (kata) within Gyokko Ryu, as part of it's Kihon Gata, that is called Jumonji no Kamae. It is the third of the Muto Taihenjutsu, a series of exercises dealing with evasive actions against a swordsman, and although it starts from Jumonji no Kamae, there is no use of a Shito Ken.
I understand that kata are not supposed to be pre-programmed responses to attack, I was just wondering about the effectiveness of that detail of the response. My instructor also often encourages us to consider henka once we have practised the kata a bit, so I'm not getting stuck in the mindset of performing these particular responses. I'm sure a lot more understanding will come with training though!
Well, really, they are and they aren't....
No, you're not supposed to automatically respond with a rote responce a la the kata movements, as each encounter is it's own unique situation, and some adaptation may indeed be required. However, what the kata are designed to do is to instill (program) their lessons, tactics, and strategies, which can then be expressed in myriad forms, so if you look at them as programming you with their combative tactics, then yes you are supposed to come out with them!
All the best with your continued training.
refers to "finger sword fist", and implies a more striking weapon. In schools that use this term (Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu, Togakure Ryu), it is more often used as a pinpoint weapon attacking smaller targets. Here, the fist is held solidly, with the thumb braced against the rest of the closed hand. In regard to the targets mentioned above, it may be pertinent to realise that, if in armour, it may only be such targets (under the armpit, top of the ribs) which are available for you to strike... and using a full fist might see you simply slamming your fingers into the armour, risking damaging them and missing your target.
