Black belts too soon????

terryl965

<center><font size="2"><B>Martial Talk Ultimate<BR
MTS Alumni
Joined
Apr 9, 2004
Messages
41,259
Reaction score
338
Location
Grand Prairie Texas
I guess with all that I add from Okinawa Karate and some other systems mine is more of a highbreed but I still call it TKD. I guess if you take what some call TKD nowadays it is simple. So I will agree with both of you on that.
 

CDKJudoka

Purple Belt
Joined
Dec 18, 2008
Messages
346
Reaction score
13
Location
Hicksville, NY
I guess with all that I add from Okinawa Karate and some other systems mine is more of a highbreed but I still call it TKD. I guess if you take what some call TKD nowadays it is simple. So I will agree with both of you on that.

TKD is a hybrid art to begin with, as are most of the MAs out there in the world.

The whole BB/length of time thing is always so hotly debated. It too me 6 years to get my first dan and another 6 to get my 2nd in TKD. Judo, I have been working at it for almost 20 years and I am still a 1st kyu. I will be testing for my 1st dan sometime next year.

For someone to get a black belt, or any sort of rank like that, I feel that it should just state that you are really good at the basic techniques. I still see a black belt as a beginner, because that is when the "real" training begins.
 

dancingalone

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
5,321
Reaction score
278
For someone to get a black belt, or any sort of rank like that, I feel that it should just state that you are really good at the basic techniques. I still see a black belt as a beginner, because that is when the "real" training begins.

A lot of people say this. Truth be told, I'd prefer the bar be set higher for earning a BB. At a minimum, it should mean you have some prospect at being effective in physical combat.
 

CDKJudoka

Purple Belt
Joined
Dec 18, 2008
Messages
346
Reaction score
13
Location
Hicksville, NY
A lot of people say this. Truth be told, I'd prefer the bar be set higher for earning a BB. At a minimum, it should mean you have some prospect at being effective in physical combat.

I agree with you on that wholeheartedly. That is probably one of the reasons it takes a lot of hard work to get a dan grade in BJJ or judo. Trial by "combat".
 

Earl Weiss

Senior Master
Joined
Jan 27, 2009
Messages
3,260
Reaction score
641
Terry,
a teachers kids WOULD be BB's by the time they are 12 or so. A kid off the street? no way, no how

, but I disagree, TKD is, comparativly, a simple martial art. There just isnt that much too it unless you add things.

Depends how it's taught. I speak from the Chang Hon perspective. I will let other system practitioners teach for themselves.

An example would be learning and teaching to "Punch like this". As compared to explaining and understanding why you rotate the fist as it extends, what targets / levels it is optimaly used for etc.

Same to be said for any number of techniques. Teaching and learning "Like this, not like this" , or explaining and understanding the hows and whys.

Then, once you understand the hows and whys you can expand and adapt them as well.

Note: the above does not mean to imply that it is perfect, or that reasoneable minds may not agree to disagree about what is better. But it's there, and it takes time to learn.
 

seasoned

MT Senior Moderator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
11,167
Reaction score
1,147
Location
Lives in Texas
I didn't say "master", I said "expert."

Old timers remember when being a "black belt" illicited respect because it did mean something. It's not until the developments of the last 20 - 30 years that the general public pretty much has no respect for it. Why do you think that is?
Right on, hell, back in the day that I remember, green and brown belts were well respected. First degree black belt 40 years ago was expert, and they could prove it, with sparring, kata, and respect. Times do change, and I am not saying it is good or bad, what I am saying is I was there and I am here. Seeing is believing, in my book.
 

seasoned

MT Senior Moderator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
11,167
Reaction score
1,147
Location
Lives in Texas
A lot of people say this. Truth be told, I'd prefer the bar be set higher for earning a BB. At a minimum, it should mean you have some prospect at being effective in physical combat.
Most assuredly, we all know, I hope, that the level of brutality from many years past, to get a black belt, would not fly these days. There was a time that Black Belt meant you could fight very well. I say this because you had to fight to get promoted. There was no such thing as, well their kata looks good, and the attitude is good, and the time in grade is there, so promote them. I saw a lot of brown belts that never made it to black because they just could not hack it. It was well understood from white belt that black belt was not a given. That is why now a days there are still small discreet dojo that still adhere to old principles, if it is what you want, you can find them. :asian:
 

Brian R. VanCise

MT Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Sep 9, 2004
Messages
27,758
Reaction score
1,516
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada
I agree with you on that wholeheartedly. That is probably one of the reasons it takes a lot of hard work to get a dan grade in BJJ or judo. Trial by "combat".

Even that is rapidly changing as you can now get BJJ rank online and I am sure there is a Judo equivalent doing it somewhere as well. :erg: (now that is just scary)
 

terryl965

<center><font size="2"><B>Martial Talk Ultimate<BR
MTS Alumni
Joined
Apr 9, 2004
Messages
41,259
Reaction score
338
Location
Grand Prairie Texas
Even that is rapidly changing as you can now get BJJ rank online and I am sure there is a Judo equivalent doing it somewhere as well. :erg: (now that is just scary)

You can always buy a rank somewhere so why is this so amazing.
 

dancingalone

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
5,321
Reaction score
278
Not sure I get the point of buying a online BJJ black belt...Surely you'd be humiliated on the mats at first opportunity by some purple belt? Man, it's way better to be a good white belt than an awful black belt.
 

CDKJudoka

Purple Belt
Joined
Dec 18, 2008
Messages
346
Reaction score
13
Location
Hicksville, NY
Not sure I get the point of buying a online BJJ black belt...Surely you'd be humiliated on the mats at first opportunity by some purple belt? Man, it's way better to be a good white belt than an awful black belt.

That would be a good way to get schooled by a white belt, let alone a purple belt.
 

punisher73

Senior Master
Joined
Mar 20, 2004
Messages
3,740
Reaction score
789
I didn't say "master", I said "expert."

Old timers remember when being a "black belt" illicited respect because it did mean something. It's not until the developments of the last 20 - 30 years that the general public pretty much has no respect for it. Why do you think that is?


Sorry, in my book someone who is an 'expert' in something also has come close to mastering it. Different people define the terms differently.

I agree that BB doesn't mean today what it used to. But, it didn't mean what it did 20-30 years ago originally either. Americans placed THEIR definition on what it should mean and that became the standard.

Read the stories about how the Americans would beat all of the Okinawans in kumite and get their blackbelts for that and not based on their knowledge of the art. They knew the basics and were tough (mostly soldiers who knew hard times) and when they brought that back, they brought that basic training/drill instructor training with them. That was how Japanese karate was taught, it was taught to young people to train them for the military. It was not how okinawans trained their karate or passed it on.

I see both sides of the coin and realize that it should be somewhere in the middle. BB SHOULD denote a level of skill and ability to pass the knowledge onto others. But, I also don't think that you have to be some hardcore toughguy who gets "hazed" with broken bones etc. to show how tough they are. There should be a happy medium that has both.
 

celtic_crippler

Senior Master
Joined
Jan 15, 2006
Messages
3,968
Reaction score
137
Location
Airstrip One
Sorry, in my book someone who is an 'expert' in something also has come close to mastering it. Different people define the terms differently.

I agree that BB doesn't mean today what it used to. But, it didn't mean what it did 20-30 years ago originally either. Americans placed THEIR definition on what it should mean and that became the standard.

Read the stories about how the Americans would beat all of the Okinawans in kumite and get their blackbelts for that and not based on their knowledge of the art. They knew the basics and were tough (mostly soldiers who knew hard times) and when they brought that back, they brought that basic training/drill instructor training with them. That was how Japanese karate was taught, it was taught to young people to train them for the military. It was not how okinawans trained their karate or passed it on.

I see both sides of the coin and realize that it should be somewhere in the middle. BB SHOULD denote a level of skill and ability to pass the knowledge onto others. But, I also don't think that you have to be some hardcore toughguy who gets "hazed" with broken bones etc. to show how tough they are. There should be a happy medium that has both.

Semantics aside, I think we're pretty much in agreement.

I just hate that the "black belt" has lost a lot of respect over the years in our culture at least.
 

punisher73

Senior Master
Joined
Mar 20, 2004
Messages
3,740
Reaction score
789
Semantics aside, I think we're pretty much in agreement.

I just hate that the "black belt" has lost a lot of respect over the years in our culture at least.


Agreed. I don't know if "McDojos" created the problem, or if they just saw the problem and offered a solution (way to capitialize on it) to it. Many kids (and some adults) have this misplaced sense of entitlement and expect that things should be given to them. "Johnny needs self-esteem!" I agree, but Johnny should EARN his self-esteem by working hard and learning perserverance and toughing it out to accomplish what he really wants and NOT some false sense of it.
 

Drac

Sr. Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Jul 16, 2004
Messages
22,738
Reaction score
143
Location
Ohio
The average in my (isshinryu) dojo is 9 years. Some faster, some slower.

At the Shorin-Ryu dojo 3-4 years was about average..A lot depended on the student...We had a female officer that claimed a was a black belt from a McDojo, I sparred with her once when I was a white belt..She was pitiful..
 

Latest Discussions

Top