Banned Book Week

Kacey

Sr. Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Given all the recent discussions of secrecy on this board, the news, and elsewhere, I found this link to the American Library Association, advertising the upcoming Banned Book Week, to be particularly interesting. What is your opinion on book banning? Not restricting certain books to adults - that's a different issue, in my opinion, along the same lines as restricting minors from activities why they are physically, developmentally, emotionally, or otherwise unready for, such as driving, signing contracts, etc. - but actual banning, from schools, from public libraries, from bookstores?
 

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I think its wrong. Its the child's decision to read the book. The only books I would ban would be pro-nazi, pro-racism, pro-sexism, pro-drugs books. I wouldn't ban a book because of 'themes' or nudity. I am sick of people banning books about hte greeks because the statues are naked!

My two cents

KenpoSterre

p.s. did you know Where's Waldo? was banned because in one of the pictures in the bottom right corner a girl did't have her swim suit top on? I mean come on. If it bothers you so much draw a little top for her not ban the books in all school libraries.
 
p.s. did you know Where's Waldo? was banned because in one of the pictures in the bottom right corner a girl did't have her swim suit top on? I mean come on. If it bothers you so much draw a little top for her not ban the books in all school libraries.

Yes, I did... did you know that many versions of Little Red Riding Hood were banned because in one of the pictures, you could see the top of a bottle that looked like a wine bottle? It was never mentioned in the text, and had more to do with the customs of the time when the book was illustrated - when drinking wine was common, especially for people who were ill - but various groups of parents got editions with similar illustrations banned because the image might cause their children to think drinking was acceptable.

I think that some books should not be available to children who are emotionally unready to read them - as Sterre said, those dealing with sex, hate, drugs, and similar adult themes - and therefore should not be present in elementary, and, in some cases, middle school libraries - but banning books outright is vile, and erodes multiple freedoms.
 
I think that some books should not be available to children who are emotionally unready to read them - as Sterre said, those dealing with sex, hate, drugs, and similar adult themes - and therefore should not be present in elementary, and, in some cases, middle school libraries - but banning books outright is vile, and erodes multiple freedoms.

I agree.

But I read 4 or 5 Judy Blume books on that top 100 list. Seems she is the most popular writer who had been banned or challenged. My daughter's loved her books.

I also went through the top 100 list and realised I read at least 4 of those books in jr/senior high, I think they were mandetory to read at the time...jeesh, no wonder I am messed up ;)
 
I also went through the top 100 list and realised I read at least 4 of those books in jr/senior high, I think they were mandetory to read at the time...jeesh, no wonder I am messed up ;)

lol same here, and a few that wernt mandertory where suggested reading lol
 
I think its wrong. Its the child's decision to read the book. The only books I would ban would be pro-nazi, pro-racism, pro-sexism, pro-drugs books. I wouldn't ban a book because of 'themes' or nudity. I am sick of people banning books about hte greeks because the statues are naked!

But isn't this another way of saying you will only allow books that you approve of? Apart from the disagreement in subject matter, how is this viewpoint different than that of those who wish to ban books about the greeks because of nekkid statues?

From the website:
Banned Books Week (BBW) celebrates the freedom to choose or the freedom to express oneÂ’s opinion even if that opinion might be considered unorthodox or unpopular and stresses the importance of ensuring the availability of those unorthodox or unpopular viewpoints to all who wish to read them. After all, intellectual freedom can exist only where these two essential conditions are met.

I wonder if the ALA would fight as diligently to get Mein Kampf on the bookshelf as they would to get It's Perfectly Normal (2005's most challenged book)? I have my doubts. And I wouldn't want them to. But I would prefer that they more clearly and honestly express that they are not on some noble quest to protect free speech in a universal sense, but rather they are attempting to provide access to a certain subset of speech that they approve of.
 
WHen I was 13, during summer vacation on Long Island, I tried to check Sybil out of the library there. The librarians back home or at boarding school knew of my precociousness (not that Sybil was much of a stretch), and wouldn't have blinked an eye, but it was the first year I'd bothered to get a card in Sag Harbor, and the librarian told me she'd have to get permission from my parents, and rightly so, and, of course, she did.

I don't think any books should be banned in this country-especially most of the ones on that "challenged book list." Parents-good parents-should be the ultimate arbiters of such a thing, with the exception of school curricula, which should be governed by grade and good taste in public schools, and nothing more.
 
The question is too broad. We are talking about school libraries, public libraries and book stores.

I think we can mainly agree that books by the Marquis DeSade should not be found in elementary school libraries. :whip1:

And I think we all agree that if someone wants to buy a book, they should be able to and so no books should be banned from book stores.

The question in my mind is public libraries. If someone wants to read the most vile, racist thing we can think of I can't see a reason why I should have a say in the matter. But at the same time, I don't see why I should have to foot the bill in the form of taxes.

There is a difference between banning a book- not letting it get out at all, and saying that you don't want the money you pay in taxes to help promote something you think is going to do a lot of harm.

Do we let the masses choose, and thus impose the will of the majority on the minority while making everyone pay? Or perhaps should we have a small group of people outside the democratic process make the choice for people, and the masses merely be made to pay for the decisions without representation?

Kind of a sticky problem, eh?
 
The question in my mind is public libraries. If someone wants to read the most vile, racist thing we can think of I can't see a reason why I should have a say in the matter. But at the same time, I don't see why I should have to foot the bill in the form of taxes.

There is a difference between banning a book- not letting it get out at all, and saying that you don't want the money you pay in taxes to help promote something you think is going to do a lot of harm.

This is it in a nutshell. I think that books should not be banned - if you can find a publisher, and a retailer to sell it, it should be available for purchase. But that doesn't mean a library should be required to carry it over the objections of those who are paying for it.

Freedom of speech means you can say what you want. It does not mean that I have to loan you a microphone.
 
I have only one thing to say on the subject of book banning, and that is part of the Cyberpunk Manifesto:

"All Information Should Be Free"
 
Wow what a list. "Adventures of Huckleberry Fin," "Tom Sawyer," "Lord of the Flies," and even "Catcher in the Rye." I don't know what my school would have done without those books. No I'm not talking my High School either, those are just SOME of the books on that list that was required reading during Junior High. I took a quick pass down the top 100 and have spent time between the pages of at least 25 of them during my school "career." Outside of a school sitting, close to half. I must be totally screwed up! LOL

Brings me to the second part of the original post, my views on banning books. I don't think banning books is very effective at all, just makes the kids want to read them even more. At least it did me, whenever I heard of a book that some schools had removed from their shelves, I had to know why. Should the Karma Sutra be in an Elementary or Junior High school library? No, I don't think that is the proper place for it, High School? Could be. I had a teacher back in 6th or 7th grade in good old Scottville Elementary School that sent home a list of material we would be reading during that 6 week period. If a parent had no objections to the list that is what we got, if a parent objected to a book or two, that kid had a different reading assignment. Happened all the time due to the different value systems in households. Did it harm our overall education - Not one tiny bit!
I belive that is the key to the whole book banning question, a parent has to be involved in their childrens education process, if nothing more than knowing what is being taught in their kids classrooms. I don't like banning books, I do like restricting books though. Make them avaliable, but the more questionable ones should require a parents OK before they are allowed to be checked out of any library. More work? Sure it is, but nobody ever said raising, or working with kids was going to be easy.
 
I was honestly suprised by alot of the books listed here. I see alot that would obviously be objectional to elementary kids parents (or at least should have approval), but ALOT of those books I've read and I loved as a kid. I've counted 13 I've read, with perhaps 4 that might be objectional to youngsters (Slaughterhouse 5, Steven King, etc).

The question in my mind is public libraries. If someone wants to read the most vile, racist thing we can think of I can't see a reason why I should have a say in the matter. But at the same time, I don't see why I should have to foot the bill in the form of taxes.

There is a difference between banning a book- not letting it get out at all, and saying that you don't want the money you pay in taxes to help promote something you think is going to do a lot of harm.

Well, in a free market, people will publish what sells. After the wall fell in Eastern Europe there was a huge influx of pornography. One of the side effects of letting people have freedom. Freedom to do what most deem good, but also freedom to do what most deem bad.

Keep bad books out of things like elementary school systems. However, you need some kind of reasonable consensus of what is "bad". I guess the same things applies to public libraries. I'm sure there are groups out there that find the Bible bad, the Koran bad, or other great works of literature bad. Where does one draw the line? Is the Kama Sutra literature? How about the Anarchist Cookbook? Harry Potter? I think someone is going to find something objectional in almost every book. I find it equally objectional to fund with my taxes artist that do desperately untasteful work, but the same objection can be raised about what is distasteful...

I think the only good option is to write to those responsible for purchasing books or funding libraries/artists. If there is a commission for public purchasing, then try some correspondence.
 
Keep bad books out of things like elementary school systems. However, you need some kind of reasonable consensus of what is "bad". I guess the same things applies to public libraries. I'm sure there are groups out there that find the Bible bad, the Koran bad, or other great works of literature bad. Where does one draw the line? Is the Kama Sutra literature? How about the Anarchist Cookbook? Harry Potter? I think someone is going to find something objectional in almost every book. I find it equally objectional to fund with my taxes artist that do desperately untasteful work, but the same objection can be raised about what is distasteful...

That is the core of the debate.

But the problem is, when someone says "standards" another will say "censorship." If we try to keep to the middle of the road, then we censor those on the fringes.

I think everyone here would be as mad as I would if they found out that their public library had books promoting sexual relationship with underage children. But should we shut up that voice by not funding it while promoting books that others might find objectionable? From their (pea brain) point of view having sex with children is a given and books that take a objective look at certain religions are blasphamy. We would be saying that their point of view is not important and our's is. And I do feel that, but do we want to give the goverment that ability to determine whose voices have merit and whose does not?

Personally, I think a lot of the books on the list are just fine. Some people have trouble with Mark Twain for his use of the term "******" in his books. I think they are silly. But who am I to judge?

The majority of people can force their will on the minority in this instance- is that right? Take into account the minority will still have to cough up their taxes to fund books they find objectionable.
 
That is the core of the debate.

But the problem is, when someone says "standards" another will say "censorship." If we try to keep to the middle of the road, then we censor those on the fringes.

To play devil's advocate, if we go to the edges of the road, we infuriate those in the middle. It is a very delicate balance - especially in regards to school curricula.

I think everyone here would be as mad as I would if they found out that their public library had books promoting sexual relationship with underage children. But should we shut up that voice by not funding it while promoting books that others might find objectionable? From their (pea brain) point of view having sex with children is a given and books that take a objective look at certain religions are blasphamy. We would be saying that their point of view is not important and our's is. And I do feel that, but do we want to give the goverment that ability to determine whose voices have merit and whose does not?

This becomes a problem from several directions. Child pornography is a nasty, nasty thing... but the first book in which I was exposed to sex between a child and an adult was a book about a young teen (13, if I recall) who is abused by her foster father, and runs away from the foster home with her younger foster sister, to make sure the same thing doesn't happen to the younger girl. Was it a little explicit for me at the time (I was in 8th grade)? Possibly. Should it have been kept out of the middle school library? I don't think so. Certainly, before the librarian let me read it (to see if it was, indeed, suitable) she called my parents and asked if I could. Later in the year, another girl read it over her father's objections (her mother approved it)... turns out his objections had to do with what her father was doing (not nearly as bad, but bad enough), and reading the book and finding out about another girl in similar (if worse) circumstances allowed her to tell the school counselor what was going on, and her father was removed from the home and his parental rights terminated... following which a group of parents tried to have the book removed from the library, for dealing with "graphic and unsuitable subjects", as I recall. Ultimately, it was kept in the library, but required a parent's written permission to read - which, of course, caused it to be in high demand.

Personally, I think a lot of the books on the list are just fine. Some people have trouble with Mark Twain for his use of the term "******" in his books. I think they are silly. But who am I to judge?

Some of them are silly. As far as the word "******", it was in common use, as a degradation of the word "Negro", but not intended as a racial slur, rather as a simple description in a southern dialect, at the time the book was written. As the quote goes... "those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it" - if we don't allow people to read about the errors of our past, how will they learn from them?

The majority of people can force their will on the minority in this instance- is that right? Take into account the minority will still have to cough up their taxes to fund books they find objectionable.

Unfortunately, in this case, the minority is often forcing their will on the majority - because the minority is a loud and uncontested squeaky wheel, and too many people ignore them because they think it doesn't affect the directly. They will find out, I fear, too late, that they have been affected.
 
Unfortunately, in this case, the minority is often forcing their will on the majority - because the minority is a loud and uncontested squeaky wheel, and too many people ignore them because they think it doesn't affect the directly. They will find out, I fear, too late, that they have been affected.

Ah, but the minority is not saying that they will not let anyone buy the books under any circumstances. They are saying they do not want public money to go for things they find offensive. It would be one thing if the minority or the majority were forcing their will on everyone. Maybe in this case, if even a small minority object to something, then the goverment will not take sides against them and merely leave it out of the publicly funded system.

There would be a lot of books I enjoy that would be dropped. But just as I do not want my tax dollars going to some racist creep, I have to give the same consideration to others and let us all stand as equals in the way the goverment works.
 
Ah, but the minority is not saying that they will not let anyone buy the books under any circumstances. They are saying they do not want public money to go for things they find offensive. It would be one thing if the minority or the majority were forcing their will on everyone. Maybe in this case, if even a small minority object to something, then the goverment will not take sides against them and merely leave it out of the publicly funded system.

There would be a lot of books I enjoy that would be dropped. But just as I do not want my tax dollars going to some racist creep, I have to give the same consideration to others and let us all stand as equals in the way the goverment works.

Well... actually, some of the minority are attempting to do just that. Keeping inappropriate books out of schools is one thing... burning every copy of a particular volume you can lay hands on is something else. In today's society, it is certain that more copies can be obtained elsewhere - but that's not the point, I don't think - it's that some people feel that they have the right to say what I, as an adult, can and cannot have access to as reading material.
 
Well... actually, some of the minority are attempting to do just that. Keeping inappropriate books out of schools is one thing... burning every copy of a particular volume you can lay hands on is something else. In today's society, it is certain that more copies can be obtained elsewhere - but that's not the point, I don't think - it's that some people feel that they have the right to say what I, as an adult, can and cannot have access to as reading material.

Well, preventing you from buying and reading books as an adult is wrong. That goes for a minority, or a majority. And sometimes the majority does things that are wrong. As I said, the problem is what we want the goverment and our tax dollars to support.
 
Well... actually, some of the minority are attempting to do just that. Keeping inappropriate books out of schools is one thing... burning every copy of a particular volume you can lay hands on is something else. In today's society, it is certain that more copies can be obtained elsewhere - but that's not the point, I don't think - it's that some people feel that they have the right to say what I, as an adult, can and cannot have access to as reading material.

IMO, this is the point. The book-burners cannot wrest books away from their owners; they have to procure them legally, whether by donation or other means. I seem to remember hearing about some brainiacs who went out and purchased books to use in a book-burning. Guess they weren't real clear on the whole supply and demand thing. Since they cannot take books from those their owners, and they cannot make the publishers stop printing them, book-burning in our society becomes a symbolic act, like burning the flag - ignorant, tacky, but ultimately harmless.
 
IMO, this is the point. The book-burners cannot wrest books away from their owners; they have to procure them legally, whether by donation or other means. I seem to remember hearing about some brainiacs who went out and purchased books to use in a book-burning. Guess they weren't real clear on the whole supply and demand thing. Since they cannot take books from those their owners, and they cannot make the publishers stop printing them, book-burning in our society becomes a symbolic act, like burning the flag - ignorant, tacky, but ultimately harmless.

For some reason, I got this idea for a great scam along the line of the Mel Brooks story "The Producers."

What if you write and self publish some book you know will tick off some tiny brained bigot like that guy that follows military funerals around to blast grieving relatives over American acceptance of homosexuality. Then you make the book known to them by a third party and encourage them to buy up copies for a book burning and press conference you convince them will show up if they burn the books.
 
For some reason, I got this idea for a great scam along the line of the Mel Brooks story "The Producers."

What if you write and self publish some book you know will tick off some tiny brained bigot like that guy that follows military funerals around to blast grieving relatives over American acceptance of homosexuality. Then you make the book known to them by a third party and encourage them to buy up copies for a book burning and press conference you convince them will show up if they burn the books.

LOL! Springtime For Fred Phelps? I like it!
 

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