Bail Out Automakers ... or let 'em fall?

[AMP-RYU]

did i ask you for any advice?

didnt think so, but i wanted to check..........

nothing I said was factually wrong.

The reason the auto makers are in trouble is because they cant pay thier UAW contracts that include some TRUELY stupid and pork laden stuff.

declare bankruptcy, void the UAW contracts, and the big three will be fine.

They will not be fine because if you void their contracts they will be making less money and wont be able to survive!!!!!! If they would bring work back to this country and create some jobs our people could afford to buy their cars and we would sell cars and they would be able to survive and so will the workers plus many more workers created by spin-off companies from these plants reopening! It is as simple as that!

 

[AMP-RYU]

Also the people who can afford cars and should be able to get a loan for cars are being turned down for loans for, if you ask me no reason! I had probably 30 contracts in two months go down hill because I couldnt get my customer bought! I mean people with like 690-750 credit score not being loaned money??? No reason for this! Their is another problem make the banks loan money! Period! Don't let them sit on the bail out money and collect interest, make them loan it!

 

[Twin Fist]

uh, NO

It's more complicated then this...and I think you should take my advice...because you don't understand what is really going on.

Stay in number three and reread this thread.

 

[Twin Fist]

They will not be fine because if you void their contracts they will be making less money and wont be able to survive!!!!!! If they would bring work back to this country and create some jobs our people could afford to buy their cars and we would sell cars and they would be able to survive and so will the workers plus many more workers created by spin-off companies from these plants reopening! It is as simple as that!

BZZZZZZZZ wrong answer, thanks for playing.

a great number of those jobs left due to the influence, which is to say GREED of unions.

THAT is a historical fact

Why would any company come BACK to the states, and deal with unions blackmailing them?

I wouldnt.

FACT:
A union worker for the big 3 costs $74 dollars an hour to employ

FACT:
That cost is passed on to the buyer

FACT: employees at non union auto plants only cost $43 dollars an hour.

FACT: that cost is passed to the buyer

FACT: unions have priced the big 3 american car makers out of the market

conclusion:

kill the unions.

That is all

 

[AMP-RYU]

BZZZZZZZZ wrong answer, thanks for playing.

a great number of those jobs left due to the influence, which is to say GREED of unions.

THAT is a historical fact

Why would any company come BACK to the states, and deal with unions blackmailing them?

I wouldnt.

FACT:
A union worker for the big 3 costs $74 dollars an hour to employ

FACT:
That cost is passed on to the buyer

FACT: employees at non union auto plants only cost $43 dollars an hour.

FACT: that cost is passed to the buyer

FACT: unions have priced the big 3 american car makers out of the market

conclusion:

kill the unions.

That is all

Its all greed! not the unions! The auto industry has survived fine for years with unions! But with bush in office he allows them to move jobs out of the country to save a buck and make them more profit! Now it is biting them in the ***! All the jobs are gone and no one has any money to buy cars! Its as simple as that! Your I assume a republican and you cant argue with that! Even if you know your wrong you will argue that your right until someone breaks their computer its not worth it! Im done!

 

[AMP-RYU]

Its all greed! not the unions! The auto industry has survived fine for years with unions! But with bush in office he allows them to move jobs out of the country to save a buck and make them more profit! Now it is biting them in the ***! All the jobs are gone and no one has any money to buy cars! Its as simple as that! Your I assume a republican and you cant argue with that! Even if you know your wrong you will argue that your right until someone breaks their computer its not worth it! Im done!

Ill tell you what instead of cutting the wages of the hard working employees at these plants, make every politician in this country work for only $20 per hour and see if they like it! I guarantee that the work these factory workers do is ten times the work our government does!

 

[Makalakumu]

uh, NO

:feedtroll

 

[LawDog]

Let them fall.
Why is it always the little guy who has to give up the most, it was not he / she who has caused this problem. Let the Exe's who are directly responsable for this problem take the major hit instead of the little guy.
When they fall someone else will step in and take over.
This happened within the airlines industry, smaller companies stepped in and changed everything, many major companies had to change their ways in order to compete.
The auto makers didn't learn their lesson when Japan almost took over during the late 70's early 80's.
This is just someone who is tired of our hard earned money being thrown away.
:soapbox:

 

[dungeonworks]

did i ask you for any advice?

didnt think so, but i wanted to check..........

nothing I said was factually wrong.

The reason the auto makers are in trouble is because they cant pay thier UAW contracts that include some TRUELY stupid and pork laden stuff.

declare bankruptcy, void the UAW contracts, and the big three will be fine.

Nothing you've said was factually right.

 

[dungeonworks]

BZZZZZZZZ wrong answer, thanks for playing.

a great number of those jobs left due to the influence, which is to say GREED of unions.

THAT is a historical fact

Why would any company come BACK to the states, and deal with unions blackmailing them?

I wouldnt.

FACT:
A union worker for the big 3 costs $74 dollars an hour to employ

FACT:
That cost is passed on to the buyer

FACT: employees at non union auto plants only cost $43 dollars an hour.

FACT: that cost is passed to the buyer

FACT: unions have priced the big 3 american car makers out of the market

conclusion:

kill the unions.

That is all

Fact: You are about $20+ dollars too high. You are quoting hourly $$$ figures that are including retiree costs. Again, you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[crushing]

Its all greed! not the unions! The auto industry has survived fine for years with unions! But with bush in office he allows them to move jobs out of the country to save a buck and make them more profit! Now it is biting them in the ***! All the jobs are gone and no one has any money to buy cars! Its as simple as that! Your I assume a republican and you cant argue with that! Even if you know your wrong you will argue that your right until someone breaks their computer its not worth it! Im done!

One doesn't need to be member of any specific political party to understand that it wasn't Bush that signed NAFTA into law and that the US has been transitioning from a manufacturing to a service economy for decades.

Would you please clarify as to how a company saving money through lower labor costs "bites the company in the ***"? Cheaper manufacturing costs may actually be what saves some companies, including corresponding US based sales, support, and engineering jobs.

 

[crushing]

Fact: You are about $20+ dollars too high. You are quoting hourly $$$ figures that are including retiree costs. Again, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Why wouldn't you use Total Cost of Labor for the comparison?

Factoring in retiree health care and legacy costs, GM's wage and benefit cost for a UAW worker is about $70 an hour, while Toyota's cost per hourly worker is about $48, said Erich Merkle, lead auto analyst with Crowe Horwath in Grand Rapids.

Zuckschwerdt (UAW Region 1-C director) said that number actually already is lower, closer to the low $60s per hour.

http://www.mlive.com/flintjournal/index.ssf/2008/12/art_for_sunday_bass_gm_money_c.html

 

[dungeonworks]

How much value do UAW members contribute to their employers?
American autoworkers are among the most productive workers in the world. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the typical autoworker produces value added worth $206 per worker per hour.1 This is far more than he or she earns in wages, even when benefits, statutory contributions and other costs are included.

Why is the figure cited as hourly labor costs by the companies so much higher than the wage rates?
In addition to regular hourly pay, the labor cost figures cited by the companies include other expenses associated with having a person on payroll. This includes overtime, shift premiums and the costs of negotiated benefits such as holidays, vacations, health care, pensions and education and training. It also includes statutory costs, which employers are required to pay by law, such as federal contributions for Social Security and Medicare, and state payments to workers’ compensation and unemployment insurance funds. The highest figures sometimes cited also include the benefit costs of retirees who are no longer on the payroll.

How much are current UAW auto industry wages?
In 2006 a typical UAW-represented assembler at GM earned $27.81 per hour of straight-time labor. A typical UAW-represented skilled-trades worker at GM earned $32.32 per hour of straight-time labor. Between 2003 and 2006, the wages of a typical UAW assembler have grown at about the same rate as wages in the private sector as a whole – roughly 9 percent. Part of that growth is due to cost-of-living adjustments that have helped prevent inflation from eroding the purchasing power of workers’ wages.

* These are from 2007. We make about $1 more per hour with less medical benefits than the information in this article as a result of mid contract concessions and with the present labor agreement of 2007 and 2nd tier workers making less per hour and gutted benefits. Read the whole article here: http://www.uaw.org/barg/07fact/fact02.php

 

[Rich Parsons]

If I could add some data to the discussion.

For over 28 years we have sold more cars then was sold in 2008.

The estimates look to be high 11 Million to Low 12 Million for the year.

We sold over 16.7 million last year and have been over 16 million units in the US for many years.

The Finance "industry" has put a hurt on everyone getting loans from companies to indivuals. I know some people with "Citi" accounts that were denied because Citi had guarenteed too much that in purchases for their float of capital. So they denied people who were buying online and or paying over the phone first verus people in restaurants or gas stations.


If 25% of all sales go away and there are no loans then it is rough to keep a float. Ford who did not ask for any immediate monies, had loans they could access for the short term and for the industry sake they allowed those in more cash starved position get it first.

The Major Tier I suppliers are tied to multiple OEM's (* Original Equipment Manufacturers *), so if one OEM goes under it could take a major Tier I out. This would cause a major disruption to the Other OEM it does business with as well as all the Tier II and Tier III suppliers who would also go down.

So while I could see some people looking to make this a Union busting issue, I also see people looking at Auto Companies and going, they build a product we can touch and we can measure and therefore there must be something we can do to improve it versus the second and third order derivatives used in the complex equations for predicting market trends and determining risk factors, that most people on the street could not understand those that could look at it and say but it is not a complete model why are thehy even trying this hard, when other simplier models work as well.

 

[dungeonworks]

Why wouldn't you use Total Cost of Labor for the comparison?



http://www.mlive.com/flintjournal/index.ssf/2008/12/art_for_sunday_bass_gm_money_c.html

Good question. Because for one, they are not factoring this in with the Japanese figure in comparison since the bear's share of the Japanese legacy costs are government costs due to national health care and their social security equivalent. It is comparing apples to oranges. The workplace in the US auto manufacturers has changed so rapidly that modern technological advances have displaced the need for the amount of workers it once had. At the time the Japanese came to the US manufacturing table, these advances in manufacturing technology were available to them from the onset. GM is 100 yrs old in the US manufacturing game and by default, we have far more retirees/legacy costs that come with it.

GM in its restructuring plan said that with changes to wages and benefits, turnover in workforce, plant consolidations, productivity improvements and changes to be negotiated, it will achieve full wage and benefit competitiveness with foreign automakers by 2012."I honestly think that retiree health care has to be on the table," Merkle said.

(From the same article)

The retiree healthcare issue would have been virtually disolved with the VEBA fund negotiated in the 2007 collective bargaining agreement. It was hailed by analysts and critics alike at the time it was conceived. The collapse of the financial industry coupled with the resulting US economic failure that results/resulted killed the immediate gains the VEBA was designed and would have provided the Big Three.

I find it so odd that nobody is holding the financial industry's feet to the fire as they are the Big Three's for their loan request when it is miniscule by comparison. Less than 10% of the cost of a GM vehicle is labor costs....less than the percentage of labor costs for a pizza delivered to your door.

 

[Twin Fist]

As crushing just PROVED, you are without a clue. I didnt say they were PAID in excess of $70, i said each union worker COSTS over $70 per hour

I was right, you are not.

Good day to you, Union Shill.



Bob0812,
just how is the president, ANY president supposed to STOP companies from moving thier jobs overseas?

thats right, he CANT

would you please learn a little something about how things actually work here before spouting your well menaing but very uninformed wish list of solutions?

the president cannot MAKE companies stay here is they choose to move jobs overseas.

Fact: You are about $20+ dollars too high. You are quoting hourly $$$ figures that are including retiree costs. Again, you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[AMP-RYU]

One doesn't need to be member of any specific political party to understand that it wasn't Bush that signed NAFTA into law and that the US has been transitioning from a manufacturing to a service economy for decades.

Would you please clarify as to how a company saving money through lower labor costs "bites the company in the ***"? Cheaper manufacturing costs may actually be what saves some companies, including corresponding US based sales, support, and engineering jobs.

Listen these companies are sending the work out of the country that buys their product!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Most of their product. Without these jobs in this country, our workforce goes down, hence eliminating the extra money our workforce has to buy the product they sell! This is infact what is biting them in the ***. They move jobs out of the country to save money, short term save, now the folks who buys these cars cant afford to buy them long term problem! Its simple, when this country started sliding, President Bush, OUR PRESIDENT should have steped in and created some kind of tax that would bring importing the cars into this country more than just building them here in the first place so they keep these jobs here! Our car manufacturers were started here and should keep their work here! Just because their are cheaper manufacturing costs because you move these plants to canada, you will lose business because people lose their jobs!

 

[AMP-RYU]

Nafta has nothing to do with what im talking about. You have USA car manufacturors importing their own product, so place a usa tax on the cars! Now I see your point if it was a canadian company importing cars into usa, than the free trade thing comes into play. But realistically your not trading between the two countries, your just bringing your product into your country! TAX TAX TAX until they move the jobs back!!!!!!!

 

[zeeberex]

As crushing just PROVED, you are without a clue. I didnt say they were PAID in excess of $70, i said each union worker COSTS over $70 per hour

I was right, you are not.

Good day to you, Union Shill.



Bob0812,
just how is the president, ANY president supposed to STOP companies from moving thier jobs overseas?

thats right, he CANT

would you please learn a little something about how things actually work here before spouting your well menaing but very uninformed wish list of solutions?

the president cannot MAKE companies stay here is they choose to move jobs overseas.

opinion aint truth, deal with it.

 

[Cryozombie]

As crushing just PROVED, you are without a clue. I didnt say they were PAID in excess of $70, i said each union worker COSTS over $70 per hour

I was right, you are not.

Good day to you, Union Shill.

did i ask you for any advice?

didnt think so, but i wanted to check

BZZZZZZZZ wrong answer, thanks for playing.

Twin Fist...
I checked the link in your Siggy... I like this part of the site:

We also concentrate on helping our students gain not only physical skills, but mental ones as well, focusing on the core values of the Martial Arts:
Courtesy - to be polite, treat others as you wish to be treated
Integrity - to exhibit good moral behavior

Well ya know, it seems to me to be, from reading your responses in this thread, a lesson you still need to learn.