Attn Tulisan

[frank raud]

"But Western Arts is a large part of what I do. One of our staple program is Bare-knuckle boxing based. We are heavily influenced by WWII combatives, western knife fighting, and fencing (mainly sabre). "

I absconded with this quote from another thread. Care to expand on this description? What era BKB? Which school of WWII combatives? Also, why?
western Knife fighting? details, please. Nothing on your website that I could see

 

[Cruentus]

Cool. No problem.

BKB: My Grandfather was a golden gloves champ 1937 and 38. His trainers and his style was from the bare knuckle era. Not much different then how Dempsey's style was also influeces from that era, even though he won the championship with gloves on.

He also faught on the streets of Detroit for money when in his early to mid 20's. These fights were bare fists and not sanctioned. He faught under the alias "Jim Little."

Anyways, he taught me the basics of fighting. He was also the driving force in getting me involved and keeping me involved in the martial arts. It wasn't until after he passed away that I continued to evolve as a combatant, and I realized after looking beyond the "martial arty" world of the asian arts how valuable his lessons were. I wish he were alive today, as I would be training with him on a regular basis, and asking a lot more questions regarding the history of his methods. Much of the information, as far as his history is concerned, is lost now.

Anyways, We have a program that I teach only privately at the moment (but could do in seminar format if asked) that is based off these boxing principals. I call it "Modern Bare Knuckle fighting." I use the word "Modern" because this is clearly an evolved modification rather then a purely historical one, so I don't want to misrepresent anything accidently.

2. WWII Combatives: THis started for our company by influence through Applegates shooting methods as taught by Sgt. Joseph Ferrera and Sgt. Lou Chiodo. These two gentlement learned methods directly from Col. Rex Applegate. From these shooting methods, we were also introduced to the hand-to-hand methods as well. My colleague and friend Ian Kinder of Live Safe Academy was certified through Hawking College in Ohio in Applegates methods. Hawking College was an organized body made specifically for the propigation and preservation of Applegates fighting methods. The unarmed as well as armed methodology as pioneered by folks such as Fairbairn and expanded upon by Applegate are so simple, yet effective that these methods permiate what we currently do.

We will most likely be training with the guys from Hawking college in the fall, so we still maintain interest in continuing the learning process of these as well as all methodologies.

3. Military Combatives: I have done work with Army Spec. Ops., which required us to learn the current army combatives in order to smoothly assimilate our knife program. We frequently attend clinics and events covering modern military combatives, like the recent seminar I attended with Tim Murray where we covered British SAS knife work.

4. Western Knife work. Same as the military stuff from above, but some of our clients and colleagues have trained with and shared information in Western Knife work from Keating, Kautz, McLemore, and Loriega to name a few. Very interesting stuff, and all very good.

5. Fencing: We have had a few fencers come through our group as well, or that are a part of our network. Some with a traditional background, and some with a more modern background. A more recent colleague of ours is someone with an olympic fencing background and College fencing coach. I personally have researched old military Saber fighting manuals to see the similarities as it relates to Filipino Bolo work. I will be covering some of this material at the upcoming WMAA camp in Buffalo NY in June.

Conclusion: The aim of TULISAN Company is to provide cutting edge effecient and effective combat methods. Our aim isn't to preserve history or traditions. So, even when I launch our new site, you won't see any information implying that we are an authority on HISTORICAL aspects of Western Martial Arts. You won't find much mention of our western MA background because it isn't about lineage for us. It is simply about offering what fighting methods are getting the best results through our results based approach. That said, we (I personally as well) wouldn't be where we are today if it wasn't for Western combat systems, so I am happy to give credit where it is due.

Paul

 

[Cruentus]

Frank,

Hopefully, that has answered your questions. I am always happy to answer genuine inquiries regarding our programs.

Paul

 

[green meanie]

Cool. No problem.

BKB: My Grandfather was a golden gloves champ 1937 and 38. His trainers and his style was from the bare knuckle era. Not much different then how Dempsey's style was also influeces from that era, even though he won the championship with gloves on.

He also faught on the streets of Detroit for money when in his early to mid 20's. These fights were bare fists and not sanctioned. He faught under the alias "Jim Little."

VERY COOL. :asian:

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Paul, that is great information. Thanks for sharing it with us.

BTW, would WW2 style combatives be your choice of a program if you only had a few days to prepare someone for a life or death CQB situation? If so, why?

 

[Cruentus]

Paul, that is great information. Thanks for sharing it with us.

BTW, would WW2 style combatives be your choice of a program if you only had a few days to prepare someone for a life or death CQB situation? If so, why?

Interesting question.

First, preparing someone for CQB in a few days would depend on the context of the predicted incident. If the context was engaging an armed assailent with firearms, then we would train specifically firearms. If it was unarmed combat in a poorly lit area, then we would train unarmed combat in poor light conditions. With only a short time to prepare, you want to train as close as you can to the conditions in which you expect to encounter. This is all very hypothetically speaking, of course.

That all said, if I had the simple task of preparing someone for a life or death situation in only a few days, I would choose one of our proprietary programs. Because our goal is to offer the most effecient and effective means of fighting through a results based approach, then the best thing I could offer would be our basic combatives program which would be designed to fullfill that need.

But, if I had to recommend something "style specific" (in other words, something that points to a specific fighting tradition), then yea, I would say Applegates methods as illustrated in "Kill or Get Killed" would be what I would recommend to prepare someone for a life and death encounter. The Col. uses a very straight forward approach that anyone could pick up on in a very short amount of time.

So, what would be the differences in preparing someone for something task specific, vs. a general encounter, vs. simply training straight out of Applegates manuel? Less being more is the difference.

For preparing for a specific encounter, you need to have a training program designed specifically for the encounter. The military understands this extremely well. If a team knows that they are going to be deployed to Iraq in a month, and they have only one or two training sessions to ensure their preparedness, then they aren't going to train anything that might be outside of the specific conditions they expect to encounter. They will train the bare minimum of skills that they will need, but they will become as versed as they can with those skills. To do anything else would be a waste of time they couldn't afford.

Similarly, if I am teaching a basic self-defense/combatives program; lets say a private seminar, and I have only 4 hours to teach someone to fight for their life in an unarmed situation, then I am not going to teach them a large variety of martial techniques. I am going to stick to very simple skills that would only take a few minutes to learn (like palms, elbows, knees, and eye gauges), but they will train those skills many times and under the stress of a simulation of some kind so that they know that they will be able to perform those skills if the time should come. A part of our network, LiveSafeAcademy, does a great job of putting on programs like these in a group format, of which I have had the pleasure of staffing.

This approach is much different then trying to fit as much material as I can in 4 hours. "Hicks Law" is an important principle here. It is better to be able to perform a small few techniques and tactics that will work under many different conditions well vs. being exposed to a large quantity of techniques that one cannot perform well.

This is also a different approach then trying to learn WWII combatives from a historical perspective, or trying to learn all of the skill sets covered in a manual such as KOGK. Such training, where there is no sense of urgancy and where we can take our time to learn something completely, is a luxary that we as martial artists have; a luxary that we couldn't afford if we knew that we had to train because we would be attacked tomorrow.

Paul

 

[frank raud]

Is there a particular edition of KOGK that you would reccomend?

 

[Cruentus]

Is there a particular edition of KOGK that you would reccomend?

I would say that the original 1943 version is the most in depth.

 

[Cruentus]

I would say that the original 1943 version is the most in depth.

Although, now that I am thinking about it, I am not sure.

There is the origional 1943 version and the final 1976 version. Once is signficantly more in depth then the other. I recommend the in depth one. I'll have to check my library and see which one that is, but I think the older version is the more in depth one....

 

[frank raud]

I would say that the original 1943 version is the most in depth.

Interesting, I would say the 1943 is the most focussed on the elements of unarmed combat and shooting. The layout of information is concise. Later editions have a changed focus on riot control and police tactics. It is hard to believe that they are the same book(revision or not).

 

[Cruentus]

Interesting, I would say the 1943 is the most focussed on the elements of unarmed combat and shooting. The layout of information is concise. Later editions have a changed focus on riot control and police tactics. It is hard to believe that they are the same book(revision or not).

Yes, I agree. I have the origional 1943 version, and the final 1976 version. One clearly covers more material then the other, and I always forget which is which . This is why I don't lay claims to being an expert on the historical side of western arts; I am so focused on the actual material that I often forget that aspect.

As a reference tool, I would recommend the longer version because it gives you more material to study. It sounds like I was mistaken and the longer version is the final addition.

That said, less is more, and quantity doesn't superceed quality. That is why I like both versions, and because they are fairly different (even though the core concepts are the same) they both are important reference tools. So, if one were going to do training from the longer version, it would be better to isolate a few concepts and tactics rather then try to see how much material could be covered in a training session.

Paul

 

[Cruentus]

I would also like to say, as far as WWII combatives go, that there are some old military men left alive that are well versed in these methods, but are not out there teaching or promoting anything.

Often it seems obscurity ends up being the case with Western methods. Case in point, TULISAN Co. is probably just as much influenced by American combatives as it is Filipino arts; but because I am more known in the FMA circles and never really discussed much the western stuff, it is assumed that I am strictly an fmaer. Again, this is more because I am so focused on the methods and what works that I am less interested in claiming any tradition.

But, as I was saying, there are a lot of old military men out there who, even after WWII, became experts in these methods, but are hidden by obscurity. I remember about 11 years ago when I was in Wyoming I ran into a WWII vet at a store. He was a nice guy, very old, but still very mobile. We were talking and he said I looked like a wrestler. I told him that I liked wrestling and wrestled frequently, but that I was really more of a martial artist. He talked with me about that, and mentioned a few things about WWII, and mentioned some of the stuff that they trained in. Then he asked me if I liked kicking. I told him that I loved kicking from my TKD experience, but that as far asfighting goes, the high kicks and stuff are something to be careful with. He then replied with something like, "I can't kick much nowadays....I am too old for that....but if someone were to try somethin' on me they'd be picking up their eyeballs from the floor...." The mans eyes glazed over and he gazed through me as if he was remembering something from his past, and at that moment I knew that this old man could probably kill me if he was pushed. He came back to normal, patted me on the arm and said, "It was nice talking to ya kid. Keep up the good work there. We need more good kids today like you..." and we parted ways.

Dudes, I wish I had the guys phone number today. I would have loved to have chatted more about training methods and his experiences. There are a lot of guys out there like that; who have a lot of Western MA experience that they take for granted. It would be nice to hear more from those folks...

Paul

 

[frank raud]

My colleague and friend Ian Kinder of Live Safe Academy was certified through Hawking College in Ohio in Applegates methods. Hawking College was an organized body made specifically for the propigation and preservation of Applegates fighting methods. The unarmed as well as armed methodology as pioneered by folks such as Fairbairn and expanded upon by Applegate are so simple, yet effective that these methods permiate what we currently do.

Did Ian Kinder go to Hocking college for police certification? My understanding from folks I know who have been there is that it is most commonly attended by law students preparing to become police officers. There are exceptions, but I believe the majority are law students.

 

[Cruentus]

Did Ian Kinder go to Hocking college for police certification? My understanding from folks I know who have been there is that it is most commonly attended by law students preparing to become police officers. There are exceptions, but I believe the majority are law students.

That is true that usually LE or aspiring LE go, but anyone can go with the proper recommendations.

Ian is not a LEO but he has been very active in the LE community; much more so then myself. He has been active with groups such as Police Self-Defense Instructors International (PSDI), National Police Training Council (NPTC), International Association of Law Enforcement Firearm Instructors (IALEFI), Advanced Law Enforcement Training Camp (LETC), and International Law Enforcement Educators and Trainers Association (ILEETA). His company is also MCOLES approved, meaning that LiveSafe is endorsed by the state of Michigan to instruct Law Enforcement.

Paul

 

[Cruentus]

So, Frank, you seem to have a lot of questions. Are you getting the answers that your looking for?



P.S. I also checked my library. It was the 1976 Marine Corps version (well over 400 pages of material) that I would recommend as the best KOGK reference. I was mistaken earlier.

 

[frank raud]

So, Frank, you seem to have a lot of questions. Are you getting the answers that your looking for?



P.S. I also checked my library. It was the 1976 Marine Corps version (well over 400 pages of material) that I would recommend as the best KOGK reference. I was mistaken earlier.

yes, I am getting the answers I seek. And Jonathan is getting more traffic in this forum. and you get to promote yourself and your associates. Everybody wins.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

yes, I am getting the answers I seek. And Jonathan is getting more traffic in this forum. and you get to promote yourself and your associates. Everybody wins.

And I am thankful to both of you for that. So long as this thread continues in a productive vein and doesn't take a turn towards (or against) MT's fraud busting policy.

Paul, I am sorry my earlier question was too generic. I should have stated it - "What, in your opinion, is the quickest way to get somebody up to basic proficiency in unarmed fighting? Is it WW2 Combatives?".

 

[Cruentus]

And I am thankful to both of you for that. So long as this thread continues in a productive vein and doesn't take a turn towards (or against) MT's fraud busting policy.

Paul, I am sorry my earlier question was too generic. I should have stated it - "What, in your opinion, is the quickest way to get somebody up to basic proficiency in unarmed fighting? Is it WW2 Combatives?".

No problem at all Jonathan; I have had no problems with any of the questions thusfar, from you or Mr. Raud. Especially your question, which was related to methodology; discussing training methods is what combat related forums are all about, in my opinion. I don't go to forums specifically for self-promotion or to discuss my credentials or that of my friends or colleagues; I am much more interested in discussion methods and history and other much more interesting things.

But, of course, I don't mind answering questions; as long as the discussion is kept positive.

Paul Janulis

 

[frank raud]

If either of you believe I am "questioning' Tulisan's credentials, or those of his associates,I apologise. I was curious about the basis of WWII combatives that Tulisan refers to, all questions since have stemmed from the responses given.

I may have a diiference of opinion in regards to the preferrable version of KOGK(I would take the 1943 or 1964 editions over the 1979), but there is lots of common ground for reference.

If I may give my response to the question that you have asked, WWII combatives, particularly of the FAS variety is definitely one of the fastest way to develop unarmed combat profiency. Simple, gross motor skills, a small, select group of techniques. Stripped down, basic, efficeint.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

If either of you believe I am "questioning' Tulisan's credentials, or those of his associates,I apologise. I was curious about the basis of WWII combatives that Tulisan refers to, all questions since have stemmed from the responses given.

I may have a diiference of opinion in regards to the preferrable version of KOGK(I would take the 1943 or 1964 editions over the 1979), but there is lots of common ground for reference.

If I may give my response to the question that you have asked, WWII combatives, particularly of the FAS variety is definitely one of the fastest way to develop unarmed combat profiency. Simple, gross motor skills, a small, select group of techniques. Stripped down, basic, efficeint.

Just some general concerns on my part because sometimes individual threads of this sort can degenerate into such - even when the thread starter himself/herself had no such intentions. No worries here, you've asked some good questions here and stimulated some great responses, IMO.

Thanks for the FAS info! I concur.