At what point do we step in?

[Kacey]

I would start by calling 911, and then I would have to decide from there. I have called 911 or our local non-emergency number quite a few times, as I live across the street from a park where kids and teens hang out, where teens pull up looking for a place to blast their stereos - I've asked a few to turn them down and then called the non-emergency number, and I have always been told not to deal with it myself - the police would much rather come than have a civilian involved... but it depends on the situation. There is no hard and fast rule that I follow, because there are always too many variables to be able to give a straight answer to this type of question.

 

[jks9199]

There are different levels of involvment that are appropriate in different circumstances. In today's world here in the US, where it seems that everybody has at least one cell phone, there's no excuse for not calling 911 at the very least. Let the cops that are paid and trained to intervene handle it... You can always add in a shouted "I'm calling the cops!" to deter people, if you feel you can do so safely.

The decision to become directly involved is harder. In the scenario originally presented:

Last week after my kids Karate class we got into the car to drive home when we noticed a verbal confrontation between a loudmouth customer and the storekeeper of a convenience store in the doorway of the store. I've gotten to know the storekeeper a bit as we have gone into the store after classes on occasions. The loudmouth had a buddy with him that was sitting in the car not getting involved.

, the parts being played by each person are pretty clear. Odds are good that the storekeeper is in the right... This ain't always so, and you can't always tell, either. But the poster wasn't alone; their kids were present. That's a major factor in getting personally involved. Who'll protect the kids while you're dealing with the bad guy?

You have to assess your own capability to respond -- and be honest about it! -- as well as the specifics of the situation. Will your direct intervention make things better, worse, or create a new danger for someone else? Often, the wisest choice, unless your intervention is required to safeguard life, is probably simply to be a good witness, and to call for trained responders. Sun Tzu wrote "He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight." It's not cowardice to realize that your involvement will only add victims or otherwise make things worse, and in those cases, to simply call 911.

 

[charyuop]

There are different levels of involvment that are appropriate in different circumstances. In today's world here in the US, where it seems that everybody has at least one cell phone, there's no excuse for not calling 911 at the very least. Let the cops that are paid and trained to intervene handle it... You can always add in a shouted "I'm calling the cops!" to deter people, if you feel you can do so safely.

I am one of the very few in USA who doesn't own a cell phone hee hee. I might have asked the shopkeeper if I could use his phone to call 911 hee hee.

 

[jks9199]

I am one of the very few in USA who doesn't own a cell phone hee hee. I might have asked the shopkeeper if I could use his phone to call 911 hee hee.

That's OK... I'm sure somebody nearby had 2 (or more!), and could have loaned you one!

Seriously -- if you don't have a phone, or don't have signal, or whatever... Direct a PARTICULAR person (as in "YOU! in the red shirt -- call 911 and tell them what's happening!") to call for you. It's especially important to do this if you're actually going to get involved!

 

[Rich Parsons]

As Martial Artists, at what point in a confrontation (concerning others) do we step in and get involved? Or do/should we?

Last week after my kids Karate class we got into the car to drive home when we noticed a verbal confrontation between a loudmouth customer and the storekeeper of a convenience store in the doorway of the store. I've gotten to know the storekeeper a bit as we have gone into the store after classes on occasions. The loudmouth had a buddy with him that was sitting in the car not getting involved.

I decided that if the buddy got out of the car I would get involved at that point. I hated that my kids were seeing this but I just couldn't drive away until I knew that the storekeeper was ok. (He was handling himself pretty well btw).

How do you guys feel about this type of situation?

Well in the state I live, if you get involved your are assaulting if nto assaulting and battering them. You went in looking for a confratation. (* Laws recently changed about house and car, but someone elses business that you have not interest in is questionable if you ask me. *) Talk to lawyer to a better feel of what is allowed and not.

The Police have always told me though that I should have never gotten involved. I could never see a guy hit a woman or a beating just take place because.

As Lisa and others have mentioned it is possible to just let your presence be known, which allows people a chance to think about their environment and witnesses and those around them.

Like I said, I get involved if someone is getting hurt or I can stop an obvious attack. May times just being present has allowed people to leave or avoid a situation.

The question was asked as a Martial Artist. Being a Martial Artist has nothing to do with it though. If you have a concealed weapon and a permit would that mean you coould get involved? Nope. If you were a doctor or a lwayer could you or should you get involved? Nope. Yet, as human beings, looking out for others is natural. It should be a part of a healthy society.

Yet these are my thoughts on the subject and that will not get you much in the end.

Good Luck

 

[donald]

I think you handled it well. I would have probably done the same thing. Hung back scoping things, and if needed be there.

1stJohn1:9

 

[Kacey]

That's OK... I'm sure somebody nearby had 2 (or more!), and could have loaned you one!

Seriously -- if you don't have a phone, or don't have signal, or whatever... Direct a PARTICULAR person (as in "YOU! in the red shirt -- call 911 and tell them what's happening!") to call for you. It's especially important to do this if you're actually going to get involved!

This is a very good point. It is much more likely that someone who is addressed directly - even by shirt color or other characteristic - will follow through than that someone will do something if you say "Hey, somebody call the cops".

 

[Callandor]

As Martial Artists, at what point in a confrontation (concerning others) do we step in and get involved? Or do/should we?

By specifying our capacity as a "Martial Artist", I assume that you mean physical involvement or making use of your martial arts skills and training. I think the answer depends on whether it is necessary, whether it is legal in your jurisdiction, and whether you are capable of making a difference in the situation.

Sometimes, it is not necessary because someone else has the duty to diffuse the situation like a guard, bouncer, or a bystander has already called the cops, etc.

The law also play a part. There are laws in some jurisdictions prohibiting any meddling with marital matters (If the fight happens to be between married couples. Of course, there are also exceptions to this - and exceptions to the exception, ad infinitum, ad nauseum.). This situation is made more difficult with the recent allowance of same sex marriage in some jurisdiction. You can never tell if a fight between two guys is a case of mugging or of lover's quarrel. :whip1: There could also be other jurisdictions which only allow for defense of self and not of others such that your act of saving another could be an unlawful aggression to his attacker.

Finally, even if the other factors allow for physical involvement, it is also wise not to underestimate the attacker. There might be one more victim when the smoke clears.

 

[Tames D]

I think the fact that I knew the storekeeper from previous encounters and I knew that he was a good man was the reason I stuck around. I wanted to make sure he didn't have to deal with more than one guy.

Having the kids with me really complicated things for me. As was mentioned earlier, I would be putting my kids at risk by leaving them alone while dealing with this situation. So yeah, There was alot running through my head in a short period of time.

 

[Tames D]

Well in the state I live, if you get involved your are assaulting if nto assaulting and battering them. You went in looking for a confratation. (* Laws recently changed about house and car, but someone elses business that you have not interest in is questionable if you ask me. *) Talk to lawyer to a better feel of what is allowed and not.

The Police have always told me though that I should have never gotten involved. I could never see a guy hit a woman or a beating just take place because.

As Lisa and others have mentioned it is possible to just let your presence be known, which allows people a chance to think about their environment and witnesses and those around them.

Like I said, I get involved if someone is getting hurt or I can stop an obvious attack. May times just being present has allowed people to leave or avoid a situation.

The question was asked as a Martial Artist. Being a Martial Artist has nothing to do with it though. If you have a concealed weapon and a permit would that mean you coould get involved? Nope. If you were a doctor or a lwayer could you or should you get involved? Nope. Yet, as human beings, looking out for others is natural. It should be a part of a healthy society.

Yet these are my thoughts on the subject and that will not get you much in the end.

Good Luck

I asked the question from a Martial Artist standpoint because as a Martial Artist I have the ability to get involved in this type of situation and help someone.
If I didn't have fighting skills, I would of called 911 and not even considered getting in the middle of something like that. So, when you have the means to help someone, then there's a decision to make. If you don't have the means, there is no decision to make (unless I want to get my *** handed to me,

)

 

[jks9199]

I think the fact that I knew the storekeeper from previous encounters and I knew that he was a good man was the reason I stuck around. I wanted to make sure he didn't have to deal with more than one guy.

Having the kids with me really complicated things for me. As was mentioned earlier, I would be putting my kids at risk by leaving them alone while dealing with this situation. So yeah, There was alot running through my head in a short period of time.

And that's exactly why you want to think through situations like this NOW, in the comfort of your desk chair and the glow of the PC screen...

Because in the real deal, you won't have time (or, most likely, capability) to think logically. If you haven't thought about it before, and essentially preloaded what to do -- you'll go on instinct, not sense.

I'm constantly mentally rehearsing what I'd do in a variety of situations. My instructor taught me to do this long before I became a cop -- and it's a way of life now.

 

[Tames D]

An interesting development to this thread: A couple of days ago after my kids karate class we stopped in the store and I witnessed the same storekeeper completely lose his temper and get in the face of one of his employees over a problem with the cash register. The employee couldn't have been much more than 18 years old and did nothing to deserve it.

That scene has me rethinking my position on the subject of getting involved in situations regarding people I don't know that well. For all I know he could have started the confrontation I descibed in the op.

Very confusing.

 

[grydth]

Everyone has to make their own calls in these situations.

If I were to see a violent altercation while taking my daughters home from the dojo, my first duty is to get them out of the danger zone.

I'm not stepping in - I'm stepping out.

Would I alert 911 or any cop I saw right after? Sure. But I'm not risking my 9 year old catching a stray bullet in the head from somebody trying to pop another guy for dissing him.

 

[Christina05]

Something to think about;

Pretend you see two guys on the street, one standing over the other, bloody and fallen? Or one, having just punched the other in the face?








I read once that if a person came into the middle of a fight, they are MUCH more likely to be sympathetic to the one whos been hit/is injured. But it could be that the one who did the hitting was acting in self defense. Just something to think about.

That is a very good point.

 

[whitetiger2001]

Some folks ... even if they're losing would get pissed off because you stepped in to help out. Some are ever-grateful and take off running leaving you to clean up the mess. Some will chip in and be embolden to go farther than they would've had they'd been alone before your intervention.

It's a real sticky this question of ethics. Do we or do we not? If anything calling 911 before doing ANYTHING like unto intervention/stepping in, will go a long way in helping your side of the case should you find yourself standing before a judge on this matter. Even being a hero has it's consequences.

Common sense here should prevail shouldn't it? If it's an elderly person being harassed/assaulted by someone obviously younger than they are then yeah. A small child being picked on by an older grade student... yeah.
An armed robbery... c'mon what's probably the best thing you can do... besides calling 911? Get as much visual information as you can; the suspects, the car they drive-away in (if any) and so on.

Don't risk your life unless you can stop the situation and all concerned can come out of it in one piece.

One more situation, a woman being attacked by a man. After the 911 call, I'd definately step .

 

[Adept]

One more situation, a woman being attacked by a man. After the 911 call, I'd definately step .

And likely end up facing off against both the man and the woman! Domestic situations are some of the most difficult to intervene in.

Having said that, seeing a man hit a woman is one of the things that really makes my blood boil...