Are many Chinese masters especially "cagey"?

geezer

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OK, this topic is going to sound soooo politically incorrect. But, here goes anyway, "Are old-school Chinese masters especially 'cagey' and perhaps even deceitful in their teaching methods?" This question was voiced to me by an old friend and, in spite of it's "incorrectness", probably should be addressed openly and frankly. We had been talking about our experiences with some older generation Cantonese masters whose teaching practices and presentation of their art did not align well with our Western concepts of ethics. Now before I go on, let me say that I know of a great many non-Asian martial-arts instructors guilty of far worse. Some are bullies, lies, cheats and outright frauds. So I don't intend this as an anti-Asian rant. Heaven forbid. It's just that we noticed that certain kinds of negative practices and attitudes seemed peculiar to these gentlemen from the Hong Kong area.

Here are some examples:

These guys did not teach equally to all students regardless of ethnicity. And even within the same group, there was blatant favoritism and playing one potential top student off against another usually for the master's benefit (either getting money, more branch schools and students, advertising or other labor in return).

Teaching would begin at a fast pace, but as the years went by, advanced knowledge would be held back jealously and then grudgingly doled out dop by drop at exorbitant prices... I mean many thousands of dollars just to learn a few movements of a "secret" advanced form.

Intentionally teaching or publishing instructional material with deliberate errors and omissions. For example, one of these men published a book on a famous martial form or set, paying to use another well known master's name as the main author (to slyly stay in the background) and then deliberately altered a couple of sequences to, as he told us, "make idiots" of all those who didn't learn the correct version from him.

This same Master also came into possession of some very rare old film footage of the last Great-Grandmaster of this art, now long deceased. He used cut and altered sequences of the footage to promote his versions of the art, then destroyed the original film!

Now if this where just one unethical individual, I would not be bringing up this issue. But, in numerous conversations, I've heard similar stories involving other individuals coming from the same milieu. And, then on the other hand, I've met individuals from the same region who are not at all like this. I like to think that I was just unlucky in my experiences, and that I've heard so many stories like this just because bad news and gossip travels faster than good news. Any thoughts?
 

David43515

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I`ve heard alot of stories in the past, but I don`t know how much truth there is to them. ALOT of the guys teaching TCMA didn`t have the best education, and Kung Fu was all they had. Teach to much and there`s nothing left to sell.
 

Bruno@MT

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I`ve heard alot of stories in the past, but I don`t know how much truth there is to them. ALOT of the guys teaching TCMA didn`t have the best education, and Kung Fu was all they had. Teach to much and there`s nothing left to sell.

Depends how you are trying to make money:
If you are trying to sell the knowledge, then this is true.
If you are trying to make money by being a great teacher who can efficiently train new members, then this is not true because new members will find their way to your door, and those who learn tend to stick around longer.
 

Rabu

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Yes.

Is there really a different answer?

The fundamental mistake made when reviewing 'the old masters' and their works, is making them out to be more than they were.

They were human. They were mortal. They were flawed.

As are we all.

Even today, can anyone say they are as engaged in training someone they do not like vs someone they enjoy the company of? I bet you would tolerate an awful lot of craptastic behavior on the part of a student in order to pay the bills. Especially if there was no alternative.

All you describe is human behavior, in all its heavenly glory!

As for the out and out fraudulent behavior? Not all people suck as much as described. Regardless of the skill of the teacher, if they lack moral fiber, I simply would turn my back upon them and find a teacher with better character. Isnt that the only way to drive the desired behavior? As with all humans, you can find someone who has something to offer of value who will share with you. Keep looking and best of luck.

Regards,

Rob
 
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G

geezer

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The fundamental mistake made when reviewing 'the old masters' and their works, is making them out to be more than they were.

They were human... They were flawed... As are we all.

True. And, ironically some of the worst SOBs in the crowd were among the most skilled. Skill and morality do not always go hand in hand.

Regardless of the skill of the teacher, if they lack moral fiber, I simply would turn my back upon them and find a teacher with better character. Isnt that the only way to drive the desired behavior? As with all humans, you can find someone who has something to offer of value who will share with you.

Yeah, I moved on and found a better teacher, whose a decent, moral human being too. But Man! The old Chinese guy I knew... lying, cheating SOB that he was... was really good. Some people run down his kung fu, but that was never the problem.
 

David43515

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I`ve heard alot of stories in the past, but I don`t know how much truth there is to them. ALOT of the guys teaching TCMA didn`t have the best education, and Kung Fu was all they had. Teach to much and there`s nothing left to sell.

When I said that Kung Fu was all they had I didn`t just mean in the business sense. Alot of them can be very prideful concerning thier reputation as a tough guy because that reputation is all they really have. Take guys like Chan Tai Shan or Lau Bun. You`d be crazy to mess with them. Thier Kung Fu was amazing.

But they died pretty much pennyless and alone far away from home. Word is both held alot back or taught fluff to the gullable because they hated the idea of someone being as good as they were. Just a personality flaw. They taught because it was a way to make a living. Yip Man hated the fact that he had to teach MA for a living, so he took a job teaching basics to the Hong Kong Resturaunt Workers Union, but held back alot for his private students.
 

K-man

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Is it any different to the Japanese teaching karate to Westerners after the war?
What I was taught as 'karate' 30 odd years ago bears no resemblance to what I understand now. Yet I still see almost all the schools still teaching the same stuff we learnt all those years ago, mainly because the principals of the schools have never looked outside their system. What I found in Okinawa recently was a great willingness to share the knowledge.
So, yes, I can believe that, in the past, many masters may have held back on the knowledge they imparted, but it doesn't excuse 'fraud'.
 

East Winds

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In my experience (over 20 years) in the Chinese Internal Arts, I have found that if you commit to a teacher he will willingly teach you everything. However if you expect to learn the whole system in a year, or flit about from teacher to teacher or system to system....... forget it!!!!!

Having said that, I've come across "masters" who knew nothing but pretended they did, but as a beginner, it's difficult to know when you are being conned.

Very best wishes
 

mograph

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Some are, some aren't. Being a martial arts teacher doesn't confer any more or less wisdom on a person. He could be a sage, a liar, a businessman, a mystic, a drunk, or just some poor schlub trying to make a living, whether old or young, Chinese, Japanese or Western.

It's when we assume that they're infallible that the trouble starts, and we accept their words without reservation because we're looking for a father figure, or just some kind of certainty in a Confucian-based master-student system. I think we should treat MA teachers as any other teacher and determine if their method is right for us.

As adults, even beginners, we have the ability to discern good teachers in a reasonable amount of time, and we should use that ability. Now that I've left my old club, I have more respect for the students who dropped out of class. It wasn't because they were lazy (which I thought at the time), but because the club and what it was teaching wasn't right for them.

I hope that makes sense ...
 

Domino

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IMO it can be a combination of a few things. Money, reputation etc etc
Some people will be rightly 'protective' of their arts and its secrets, stories of false teaching could make minds curious.
 

ggg214

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it's normal, in CMA. i don't know how it is in other martial art!
when i am a teacher(not now), i will not teach everyone everything in the style, unless this one is accepted as my disciple.
talking about the key of the style, i think money is not such an important thing to be considered.
 

Eric_H

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You can't spend your whole life studying strategy and not be a cagey MF'er at the end. Well, unless you're kinda slow ;)
 

Neijia

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Cultural differences.

I grew up within a Chinese community and lived in China. Here is what is going on. They teach the BS and the good stuff. The good secret stuff is in front of your eyes on the first day. Those who are smart enough find it because they practice it and sift through it. Those too stupid have to pay more money for huge obvious hints. If you still don't get it...too bad. Thats how they see it. They are sifting through BS students just as you are sifting through BS information. When you know BS for BS he knows you are quality and will break his back to entrust his system to you.

Are Chinese masters deceitful and evil? No...students are just stupid and lazy. It takes ten years to test a student, no exceptions in the modern world. When you say, "I paid you so you owe me" He will teach you how to get beat up and nothing more. Don't like it? Too bad, there is a method to the madness. If you can't tell garbage from gold when its in front of your face, how will you develop it further? You can't. You will just cover gold in garbage because you are lazy and stupid. You don't pass something precious entrusted for thousands of years to some idiot that doesn't know what is garbage and what is gold.
 

Tames D

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Cultural differences.

I grew up within a Chinese community and lived in China. Here is what is going on. They teach the BS and the good stuff. The good secret stuff is in front of your eyes on the first day. Those who are smart enough find it because they practice it and sift through it. Those too stupid have to pay more money for huge obvious hints. If you still don't get it...too bad. Thats how they see it. They are sifting through BS students just as you are sifting through BS information. When you know BS for BS he knows you are quality and will break his back to entrust his system to you.

Are Chinese masters deceitful and evil? No...students are just stupid and lazy. It takes ten years to test a student, no exceptions in the modern world. When you say, "I paid you so you owe me" He will teach you how to get beat up and nothing more. Don't like it? Too bad, there is a method to the madness. If you can't tell garbage from gold when its in front of your face, how will you develop it further? You can't. You will just cover gold in garbage because you are lazy and stupid. You don't pass something precious entrusted for thousands of years to some idiot that doesn't know what is garbage and what is gold.

Your posting style seems very familar. Have you been here under another name recently?
 

Neijia

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I am the stupid one. I have not been lazy, over time I have come to understand that most of the time I have been ignorant. Please take what I saw with thick skin. Reality can come as a slap in the face. The majority of secrets are in front of you the whole time. What I said about how Chinese teachers work is absolutely the truth. They aren't evil, its a question of time/effort and economy of action. I am not a genius, I have worked hard over time and people have told me things that either made me laugh out loud or came as a slap in the face, often they came through fights I have had. When I say that I walked through black belts I felt no pride at the time, but disappointment. The hard fights I have had and lost taught me the most. Those are my victories. Anyone along the way will understand this.

I have never posted here before and although I come across abrasively I am telling the truth, over time you will understand that I am actually compassionate and I want you to develop quickly without wasting time.
 

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