Applied Wing Chun is almost karate

[JowGaWolf]

I like what I see at this school... even if it is not orthodox wc.

They should spend some time conditioning their forearms and shins instead of using the protection on the forearms. All of that training is going to go to waste if they ever had to use it in real life or even in a sporting event. Conditioning is vital to any martial arts if anyone is planning on actually using it.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Every time I am in a 'whaattt' thought. Just what does that mean.
"Shake it out, Shake it out" ???

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"WE BUILD WARRIORS"

His "/ Good luck with that" is a simple insult to whomever it is directed. He is saying you don't the intelligence or knowledge to understand or be on his level of thought.

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"LEADERSHIP / "DISCIPLINE" / "RESPECT"...

 

[Danny T]

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Pressure testing is more in line with sport training theory.
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This statement about WC is horse crap. This is a big selling, commercial marketing point to guys (& gals) who want to learn they can handle pressure.

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I've always been in general agreement with same. Never been acknowledged here @ MT though.....

You did write these did you not?

\This argument have been hashed and rehashed by other posters separate from me on other threads.
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Guess we need to sign up @ your school to get the real dope...

You don't want to discuss it why present it?
As to training at my school the door is open. The training is good but we don't use dope. Or, there are several other very good schools in the area as well to choose from. We get along well and even recommend each other depending on what the person is wanting.

 

[ShotoNoob]

You did write these did you not?

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Yes Danny, but you took my statements out of context of the full position statement I have written.
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Pressure testing is valuable and is incorporated within the traditional karate curriculum component of kumite (largely).
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To me, the position you took was in contradicion to the McDojo (er Dojang) Backfiss Miss YT vid where the TKD participants were basically practicing recreational karate. A start would have been to acknowledge my support of your position from that post. Instead, I got a bunch of wisecracks from an attempt to insert a little humor, not to mention stick to my guns.
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The position I see you taking is that the training must be in this pressure testing environment. Like Matt Thornton, somehow rehearsing techniques under pressure is superior to the TMA of 'air punching,' individual kata, isolated 1-steps, etc. I can agree with you for practical purposes (for most who don't really want to commit to serious MA training) and for the fact that a large or majority of the dues-paying public will agree & adopt the concept of pressure testing as a central theme.
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By TMA theory, however, it still remains that other central principles are employed in building a successful traditional martial arts skill base, and pressure testing is only a minor part of that process... So it one develops a pressure-testing training curriculum and calls it TMA 'cause you include the physical techniques of Muay Thai, Wing Chun, etc.; what you are teachning is not TMA. The TMA method, the curriculum does not revolve around 'pressure testing.'

You don't want to discuss it why present it?

I have been discussing the issues @ length.... serious answers have been sparse...

As to training at my school the door is open. The training is good but we don't use dope. Or, there are several other very good schools in the area as well to choose from. We get along well and even recommend each other depending on what the person is wanting.

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Well now you're talking like an instructor. I caught a couple of your schools YT vids, and my YT impression is that your instructor group is very skilled. Especially at adding the situational self defense training beyond the dojo walls. So I think you are going to help a lot of people in that regard.
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I'll post a Shotokan master YT vid supporting my position below....

 

[ShotoNoob]

TATSUYA NAKA from Movie High Kick Girl
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I know this is a WC thread. My point is WC is way more sophisticated than Shotokan karate. Notwithstanding, the essential human TMA building blocks of both are the same. My further point is that if you misconstrue the principles in a relatively simple TMA like Shotokan, how are you ever going to get WC which is karate x 50 in sophistication & difficulty?
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T. Naka throws around a number of cryptic instructions and metaphors. They are all relevant. But what are the central principles of TMA... looking @ TSD maybe is clearer and more succinct. So it's easy to get confused as to what is really going on.
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The usual staged (choreographed) attack in the demo doing a lunge punch with opposing hand chambered at waist... then freeze. The purpose of the uke is not to simulate a real time live attack. The purpose of the uke is to simulate an attack in principle which then you respond in a precise & disciplined way also in principle, to defeat the attack. The exercise is staged this way to isolate out the dynamic of an attack in principle and foster the development of your mentally disciplined response using / with principles....
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The WC TMA base training is employing the same principles, yet on a much more advanced level mentally. This is why huge reason you don't see WC in MMA, 'cause really good WC is way harder than karate to become accomplished at. To get WC to real effectiveness by TMA standards is a very. very arduous and challenging task.... hence the probably of failure is much higher than training karate for MMA.
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I'll follow up with a funny anectode about my very limited experience with Wing Chun.

 

[ShotoNoob]

FOLLOW UP RE WING CHUN EXPERIENCE.
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I had visited a local CMA school many years ago. The curriculum was very Mcdojo'y. Yet the Head instructor at this local was a solid kung fu stylist. This instructor was very well trained and his physique & body movement spoke volumes... A couple other instructor level practitioners there weren't bad. At the time, I was mainly focused on traditional karate. The Head instructor was highly critical of the Japanese style karate's and strongly discouraged me from joining up. Any way I was able to join up.
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One particular student there took an interest in me personally. Turns out he had a black-belt in WC which he had attained from a school on the east coast, I think Boston. He also felt the curriculum was very McDojo'y. However, there wasn't much choice close to him and he was interested in a special Kung fu style that the school advertised for advanced students. The WC Black-belt also had trained under another kung fu sifu in my area, but that school had closed. That school taught a more generic Shaolin style, which was what I was interested in.
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The WC Black-Belt was also interested in full contact.... pressure testing. So he invited me to his house to practice. He agreed to train me what he knew about Northern Shaolin; why I was there... Any way, I agreed to go a round of full contact with him to see the impact. He was also into boxing,,, which he explained had advantages over kung fu.. in his mind (which I strongly disagreed). Anyway, he put some protective equipment on me and then he started full contact. Well at one point he punched me in the chest real (real) hard and the pain felt as if there wasn't any chest protector on me. He had demonstrated a sneaky boxing type gambit.
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I stopped him at that point. You may say I was sissy for not going on. Frankly, my safety and health were the reasons I was studying TMA... which was not what I had just experienced. But let me tell you the bigger point, which my WC friend entirely missed in that attack.
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In throwing that really debilitating punch by the sneaky boxing routine-- he left his head exposed a mile-wide open. The real success from TMA comes from mental discipline... which I had developed to a high pretty level at that time. Had I not been in exploration mode, but combat mode, he may have caused me some pain & physical shock from his boxing gambit.... he would also have been rendered unconscious from my power blow to his exposed head. TMA is not some joke. At that point, I saw no reason to continue full contact with him. The WC Black-belt had enormous respect for my thought process.
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To continue, the Mcdojo kung fu instructor kinda picked on my like here at MT 'cause of my karate style dedication, and because well, you know, I'm kinda a Laszlo kinda guy. Privately, the WC Black-belt stuck up for me in class and usually requested to be my training partner. Anyhow, the Head Instructor challenged me to spar one day, and i declined. I told I don't like sparring... which prompted a few wisecracks (MT poster-like) from the instructor's buddies. The Head Instructor let me off the hook, for now he said. I told the WC-Black-belt I've never fight the instructor.
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Well one of the classes, when I was absent, the Head Instructor challenged the WC-Black Belt to a spirited sparring match. Well, the WC-Black Belt, who embraced full contact, eagerly took the challenge. For one, he felt the Head Instructor was trying to prove himself to us 'dummy' new students. Furthermore, the WC-Black-Belt respected my intelligence and felt the Head Instructor has insulted me on a number of occasions and even roughed me up a bit too much in one class (I still refused to spar.).
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Well both the Head Instructor and the WC black-belt were eager to demonstrate to the class what they could do. Problem for the Head Instructor, he didn't bother to ask about the background of the WC-Black-Belt who had attended a pretty good school, including pressure testing I'm sure.... The upshot is that the WC-Black-Belt unloaded some on the Head Instructor and sent the Instructor scrambling all over the floor trying to regain his composure. Once the Head Instructor did that... he was able to take my WC-Black Belt co-student head on (with some struggle). The WC Black-Belt recounted the surprised look on the Head Instructor's face @ the sparring match start... was beyond words.... After, the Head Instructor began to stop selling himself to us so hard following that WC Black-Belt match.
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The moral with Laszlo-like me, is that I train to the kata standard in the Tatsuya Naka YT demo vid. I don't require pressure testing the way others do because I will simply unload full body power driven through mental disciple that will end the fight very quickly... no matter how sneaky, clever your boxing... whatever gambit is. The WC Black-Belt got this about me and we remained friends while he was stationed in my local.
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I always wondered why he felt WC wasn't enough in it's own.
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Now, someone here else can make fun of "shotonoob," it's really quite revealing... like my real life anecdote.

 

[Xue Sheng]

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Huh? Sound like an attorney who needs more clients....

Sounds like someone I should not take seriously...

I always wondered why he felt WC wasn't enough in it's own.

Find a "real" Wing Chun school and you will see that it is... you have 1 experience and you now feel you know all there is to know about Wing Chun.... alrighty then

And for the record...Traditional Chinese Martial arts, including Wing Chun....there are no belt ranks...have a nice day

 

[TSDTexan]

Sounds like someone I should not take seriously...



Find a "real" Wing Chun school and you will see that it is... you have 1 experience and you now feel you know all there is to know about Wing Chun.... alrighty then

And for the record...Traditional Chinese Martial arts, including Wing Chun....there are no belt ranks...have a nice day

And traditional Old School Okinawan Martial Arts knew nothing of belt ranks until 1957 when Okinawan Karate Associations were formed by Okinawan Masters who had accepted "new" Japanese reforms. Belt rankings were and always have been a Japanese invention.

And Even CMA Wing Chun has been affected.:

International Wing Chun Organization Grading System - International Wing Chun Organization

The uniform and gradation system International Wing Chun Organization - IWCO

International Wing Chun Organization - IWCO gradation system

• 7 "basic" levels: 學員級 ( Hok Yuen Kup ): 1 - 7 Cup ( Ji )
• 6 Master levels: 師範段 ( Si Fan Duan ): 1 - 6 Duan
• 3 "advanced" Master levels: 師傅段 ( Si Fu Duan ): 7 - 9 Duan

• 
  
  
  "Basic" levels - 學員級 ( Hok Yuen Kup ):
  
• 1 Cup - 學員一級 ( Hok Yuen Yat Kup ) — one green strip at the ends of the black belt — |
• 2 Cup - 學員二級 ( Hok Yuen Yee Kup ) — two green strips at the ends of the black belt — | |
• 3 Cup - 學員三級 ( Hok Yuen Sam Kup ) — one blue strip at the ends of the black belt — |
• 4 Cup - 學員四級 ( Hok Yuen Sae Kup ) — two blue strips at the ends of the black belt — | |
• 5 Cup - 學員五級 ( Hok Yuen Ng Kup ) — three blue strips at the ends of the black belt — | | |
• 6 Cup - 學員六級 ( Hok Yuen Luk Kup ) — one red strip at the ends of the black belt — |
• 7 Cup - 學員七級 ( Hok Yuen Tsat Kup ) — two red strips at the ends of the black belt — | |
  
  
  Master levels - 師範段 ( Si Fan Duan ):
  
• 1 Duan - 師範一段 ( Si Fan Yat Duan ) — red belt
• 2 Duan - 師範二段 ( Si Fan Yee Duan) — one yellow strip at the ends of the red belt — |
• 3 Duan - 師範三段 ( Si Fan Sam Duan ) — two yellow strips at the ends of the red belt — | |
• 4 Duan - 師範四段 ( Si Fan Sae Duan ) — three yellow strips at the ends of thered belt — | | |
• 5 Duan - 師範五段 ( Si Fan Ng Duan ) — a yellow stripe along thered belt — —
• 6 Duan - 師範六段 ( Si Fan Luk Duan ) — two yellow strips along thered belt — =
  
  
  "Advanced" Master levels- 師傅段 ( Si Fu Duan ):
  
• 7 Duan - 師傅七段 ( Si fu Tsat Duan ) — Sifu - Yellow belt
• 8 Duan - 師傅八段 ( Si fu Bart Duan ) — Sifu - Yellow belt with black characters Wing Chun at the ends of the belt
• 9 Duan - 師傅九段 ( Si fu Kau Duan ) — Sifu - "Head of Organization" - Yellow belt with red characters Wing Chun at the ends of the belt

 

[TSDTexan]

 

[wckf92]

....there are no belt ranks...

This is my experience as well...no belt ranks...just get better or get hit a lot!

 

[Xue Sheng]

And traditional Old School Okinawan Martial Arts knew nothing of belt ranks until 1957 when Okinawan Karate Associations were formed by Okinawan Masters who had accepted "new" Japanese reforms. Belt rankings were and always have been a Japanese invention.

And Even CMA Wing Chun has been affected.:

International Wing Chun Organization Grading System - International Wing Chun Organization

The uniform and gradation system International Wing Chun Organization - IWCO

International Wing Chun Organization - IWCO gradation system

• 7 "basic" levels: 學員級 ( Hok Yuen Kup ): 1 - 7 Cup ( Ji )
• 6 Master levels: 師範段 ( Si Fan Duan ): 1 - 6 Duan
• 3 "advanced" Master levels: 師傅段 ( Si Fu Duan ): 7 - 9 Duan

• 
  
  
  "Basic" levels - 學員級 ( Hok Yuen Kup ):
  
• 1 Cup - 學員一級 ( Hok Yuen Yat Kup ) — one green strip at the ends of the black belt — |
• 2 Cup - 學員二級 ( Hok Yuen Yee Kup ) — two green strips at the ends of the black belt — | |
• 3 Cup - 學員三級 ( Hok Yuen Sam Kup ) — one blue strip at the ends of the black belt — |
• 4 Cup - 學員四級 ( Hok Yuen Sae Kup ) — two blue strips at the ends of the black belt — | |
• 5 Cup - 學員五級 ( Hok Yuen Ng Kup ) — three blue strips at the ends of the black belt — | | |
• 6 Cup - 學員六級 ( Hok Yuen Luk Kup ) — one red strip at the ends of the black belt — |
• 7 Cup - 學員七級 ( Hok Yuen Tsat Kup ) — two red strips at the ends of the black belt — | |
  
  
  Master levels - 師範段 ( Si Fan Duan ):
  
• 1 Duan - 師範一段 ( Si Fan Yat Duan ) — red belt
• 2 Duan - 師範二段 ( Si Fan Yee Duan) — one yellow strip at the ends of the red belt — |
• 3 Duan - 師範三段 ( Si Fan Sam Duan ) — two yellow strips at the ends of the red belt — | |
• 4 Duan - 師範四段 ( Si Fan Sae Duan ) — three yellow strips at the ends of thered belt — | | |
• 5 Duan - 師範五段 ( Si Fan Ng Duan ) — a yellow stripe along thered belt — —
• 6 Duan - 師範六段 ( Si Fan Luk Duan ) — two yellow strips along thered belt — =
  
  
  "Advanced" Master levels- 師傅段 ( Si Fu Duan ):
  
• 7 Duan - 師傅七段 ( Si fu Tsat Duan ) — Sifu - Yellow belt
• 8 Duan - 師傅八段 ( Si fu Bart Duan ) — Sifu - Yellow belt with black characters Wing Chun at the ends of the belt
• 9 Duan - 師傅九段 ( Si fu Kau Duan ) — Sifu - "Head of Organization" - Yellow belt with red characters Wing Chun at the ends of the belt

That's nice...and they are who exactly.

There is no one authority over Wing Chun that has set a belt ranking system. Belt ranks in CMA are purely a western influenced thing. There is no belt ranking system, as far as I know, out of any of Ip Man's students and I do not believe Ip Chun or Ip Chung do belt ranking. There are no blet raniing systems in Wing Chun in foshan either as far as I know and the one Wing Chun School I know about in Beijing does not have one either. My first sifu (student of Ip Ching) had no belt ranking system and my second set up one for his students but none of his teachers, as far as I know had one.

So the International Wing Chun Organization Grading System I simply am not taking seriously as a standard, sorry.

I hold with there are no belt ranking systems in traditional Wing Chun...

 

[geezer]

You've got defensive written all over you post....

Odd. Most people find me mildly offensive. Of course in Wing Chun we prefer simultaneous offense and defense!

 

[JowGaWolf]

That's nice...and they are who exactly.

There is no one authority over Wing Chun that has set a belt ranking system. Belt ranks in CMA are purely a western influenced thing. There is no belt ranking system, as far as I know, out of any of Ip Man's students and I do not believe Ip Chun or Ip Chung do belt ranking. There are no blet raniing systems in Wing Chun in foshan either as far as I know and the one Wing Chun School I know about in Beijing does not have one either. My first sifu (student of Ip Ching) had no belt ranking system and my second set up one for his students but none of his teachers, as far as I know had one.

So the International Wing Chun Organization Grading System I simply am not taking seriously as a standard, sorry.

I hold with there are no belt ranking systems in traditional Wing Chun...

In traditional hinese martial arts there is no "natural belt ranking system" however some traditional Chinese martial arts schools do play into the "belt ranking" system by using colored sash ranking for business purposes. Westerners for some reason feel that they need a belt to represent their accomplishments or that a belt is the only way to tell who has the most experience. In the U.S. a belted system brings in more customers than the average Traditional Chinese martial arts school. Unfortunately for many westerners they are too concerned with a belt color and that often is part of the reason why students get caught up in the McDojos and fake BJJ schools. I understand that the owners have to pay the bills and a color sash brings in the customers and money so I don't hate on them as much as I would like to. lol. I've seen CMA schools go out of business because they weren't going to buy into the color sash thing.

 

[geezer]

BTW all you WC guys... after watching that video by TSDTexan, what is your take on the Japanese concept kime as relating to the way you express your power when striking. Do you find that it relates directly to anything we do in WC ...or not?

I believe the description of kime In "Western terms" used in that video was "a short isometric neuromuscular contraction". In our branch we generally avoid any muscular contraction or "braking action" on the end of our punches Accordingly when "air-punching" we punch to full extension allowing the elbow to straighten. When bag hitting, we allow the bag to stop the punch, there is no instant of isometric contraction. So this seems different to me.

On the other hand, we do add upward wrist flexion as the punch reaches maximum penetration and release energy into the target. But this is essentially a forward jolt, not a tensing or momentary pulling back. Is it analogous to kime? It seems different to me ...but then I'm not a karateka. So what do I know. Any thoughts?

 

[Xue Sheng]

In traditional hinese martial arts there is no "natural belt ranking system" however some traditional Chinese martial arts schools do play into the "belt ranking" system by using colored sash ranking for business purposes. Westerners for some reason feel that they need a belt to represent their accomplishments or that a belt is the only way to tell who has the most experience. In the U.S. a belted system brings in more customers than the average Traditional Chinese martial arts school. Unfortunately for many westerners they are too concerned with a belt color and that often is part of the reason why students get caught up in the McDojos and fake BJJ schools. I understand that the owners have to pay the bills and a color sash brings in the customers and money so I don't hate on them as much as I would like to. lol. I've seen CMA schools go out of business because they weren't going to buy into the color sash thing.

That is why I said it was a purely a western influenced thing

 

[JowGaWolf]

That is why I said it was a purely a western influenced thing

yep. exactly and westerners will be the ones who will cheapen the value of the colored belts because some schools give them out like candy.

 

[TSDTexan]

BTW all you WC guys... after watching that video by TSDTexan, what is your take on the Japanese concept kime as relating to the way you express your power when striking. Do you find that it relates directly to anything we do in WC ...or not?

I believe the description of kime In "Western terms" used in that video was "a short isometric neuromuscular contraction". In our branch we generally avoid any muscular contraction or "braking action" on the end of our punches Accordingly when "air-punching" we punch to full extension allowing the elbow to straighten. When bag hitting, we allow the bag to stop the punch, there is no instant of isometric contraction. So this seems different to me.

On the other hand, we do add upward wrist flexion as the punch reaches maximum penetration and release energy into the target. But this is essentially a forward jolt, not a tensing or momentary pulling back. Is it analogous to kime? It seems different to me ...but then I'm not a karateka. So what do I know. Any thoughts?

"There are no (over) commited strikes in wing chun."
This principle means a distance has been set for the maximum for a given strike. This is the essence of kime.

 

[wckf92]

WC's hands (and feet! ) as I was taught are different from a Karateka's in that once launched away from our body/core...they are prepared for striking/impact anywhere along its trajectory. In other words, the structure behind the weapon is by design intended to be a threat while in motion, vice say the last few inches or so. Fighting is way too dynamic to always think your target will be in the desired impact area / range of your weapons...
But, may I suggest, that this "kime as it relates to WC" might make for a good separate thread????

 

[geezer]

"There are no (over) commited strikes in wing chun."
This principle means a distance has been set for the maximum for a given strike. This is the essence of kime.

That rings true.

So then I take it kime doesn't necessarily involve that instant of tension at the end of each strike?

 

[geezer]

But, may I suggest, that this "kime as it relates to WC" might make for a good separate thread????

Sounds good, but as I don't use the term, I couldn't really contribute much.