Anybody familiar with Tid Sin Kuen/iron wire form?

[Wing Woo Gar]

I am not poo-pooing tradition, learn the generally accepted choreography. The Iron Wire is the highest set and internal. It is based off of theory- the 12 bridges. Who cares about the postures, if the energy is expressed to reflect the theory.

Yes, follow a strong lineage. But, at some point you have to evolve and grow beyond that; take it to the next level.

Curious about your teacher and your training. Could you elaborate? Not just on iron wire, but your whole Hung Gar training experience including exercises.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Really? I’m surprised to hear that. It is certainly a Hung Gar form. I believe it was created by Lam Sai Wing himself. I could classify it as a hard Qi Gong type of form but it is unique in a few aspects.

I have never trained it, and my Wing Chun Teacher doesn’t teach it, so i’m not that surprised

 

[Xue Sheng]

Hung Gar and Wing Chun together? The basic stance in each would seem to be somewhat at odds. Interesting choices to mix.

No, he doesn’t really teach both. He teaches wing chun with hints of hung ga. Mostly the qinna and shuaijiao bits he feels fit wing chun. He does still train it and still assists his teacher with Demos but he does not teach it.

 

[isshinryuronin]

What I think he means is that practicing the form will expand the basic tenets

I didn't read it that way per the quote below.

each lineage/school/person have their own version.

While everyone will have their own individuality in how they express a form's techniques, it's not really a different version.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I didn't read it that way per the quote below.

While everyone will have their own individuality in how they express a form's techniques, it's not really a different version.

Perhaps I was being more charitable than usual. I am asking for people’s personal experiences regarding this form after all. You actually raise a good point, because when learning a form with martial techniques, my personal nuance is bound to be displayed because I know what punch for instance does. In this case it does not contain martial “techniques” per se, and thusly I have no frame of reference for parts of it, including the sounds.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

No, he doesn’t really teach both. He teaches wing chun with hints of hung ga. Mostly the qinna and shuaijiao bits he feels fit wing chun. He does still train it and still assists his teacher with Demos but he does not teach it.

Still a very interesting combo, even if he doesn’t teach it.

 

[isshinryuronin]

A long while back had a friend who practiced hung gar .....he once showed me some of his practice of it..There are sounds associated with it..

Seemed a lot like some of the Sanchin

/I have no frame of reference for parts of it, including the sounds.

There is a difference in the way sanchin is vocalized based on the lineage. Uechi ryu does it without much tension or breathing sounds. Gogen Yamaguchi goju has very prominent sound, though I've seen/heard louder but don't remember by whom or what style. Higaonna's goju has a noticable exhale sound but less than Yamaguchi. My style is similar in sound to Higaonna.

In sanchin, the sound is a function of tense abdominal breathing, forcing out the air. I have never heard of making sounds for the express purpose of the sound itself. That video of Y. C. Wong is very vocal. Some of the sounds seem like kiai, others in conjunction with tension moves. The "laughing" sound is a mystery to me as to its function/purpose.

 

[Same Trick]

Hung Gar and Wing Chun together? The basic stance in each would seem to be somewhat at odds. Interesting choices to mix.

Didn’t there use to be a rivalry between the two styles back in Hong Kong, or am I going Shaw Brothers here ?
Eventually the rivalry might have morphed into friendly exchanges?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Didn’t there use to be a rivalry between the two styles back in Hong Kong, or am I going Shaw Brothers here ?
Eventually the rivalry might have morphed into friendly exchanges?

I wouldn’t know about rivalries in Hong Kong.

 

[Same Trick]

Heng Ha er jiang

Heng Ha Er Jiang - 必应

In Japan known as Nio-guards or Kongō Rikishi

Two spirited warrior brothers designated protecting the Buddha. Depicted muscular and fierce, facial expressions show one with open mouth as making the sound “A”, the other with mouth closed as making sound “Um”

Related to breath, duality, yin/yang, two forces interplay.

Related in GongFu exercises by its breathing and dynamic tension style of muscles exercising


Kongo-rikishi - 必应

 

[Flying Crane]

Heng Ha er jiang

Heng Ha Er Jiang - 必应

In Japan known as Nio-guards or Kongō Rikishi

Two spirited warrior brothers designated protecting the Buddha. Depicted muscular and fierce, facial expressions show one with open mouth as making the sound “A”, the other with mouth closed as making sound “Um”

Related to breath, duality, yin/yang, two forces interplay.

Related in GongFu exercises by its breathing and dynamic tension style of muscles exercising


Kongo-rikishi - 必应

I don’t know anything about the fellows depicted by the statues, nor about Buddhism. Is it established knowledge in Buddhism that they are making those sounds? Because if not, I think it’s a long stretch to make the assumption just based on the statues. The guy with the open mouth could be screaming anything or just a primal scream. The other guy could be making no sound at all, just looking fiercely into the distance.

 

[Same Trick]

I don’t know anything about the fellows depicted by the statues, nor about Buddhism. Is it established knowledge in Buddhism that they are making those sounds? Because if not, I think it’s a long stretch to make the assumption just based on the statues. The guy with the open mouth could be screaming anything or just a primal scream. The other guy could be making no sound at all, just looking fiercely into the distance.

You have actually never heard or read about the “Aum”/“Om” sound in Indian religious/spiritual traditions ?!
In Greek traditions there is the Alpha/Omega

 

[Flying Crane]

You have actually never heard or read about the “Aum”/“Om” sound in Indian religious/spiritual traditions ?!
In Greek traditions there is the Alpha/Omega

I have heard of the OM in Indian spiritual traditions, though I have zero understanding of it or what it is intended to accomplish.

That is a different topic from Buddhist guardians and what sounds they may or may not be portraying in statue form.

So, do Buddhist traditions indicate that these fellows as portrayed in the statues are making a Ahh sound or an Umm sound? And if so, is there reason to believe that the Iron Wire form has some connection to this?

 

[Same Trick]

I have heard of the OM in Indian spiritual traditions, though I have zero understanding of it or what it is intended to accomplish.

That is a different topic from Buddhist guardians and what sounds they may or may not be portraying in statue form.

So, do Buddhist traditions indicate that these fellows as portrayed in the statues are making a Ahh sound or an Umm sound? And if so, is there reason to believe that the Iron Wire form has some connection to this?

In Chinese and Japanese martial arts traditions some do make the association of A/Um, Heng/Ha to these Buddhist guardians(maybe because it’s actually the case ? ), they’re called “HengHa er jiang” in China .

Heng actually pronounced as “hung”…… but not associated with the Hung in Hung-Gar

If the HungGar iron wire form or Karate’s Sanchin kata can be associated to those statues is probably up to individual speculation, I think there is a plausible connection

 

[Flying Crane]

In Chinese and Japanese martial arts traditions some do make the association of A/Um, Heng/Ha to these Buddhist guardians(maybe because it’s actually the case ? ), they’re called “HengHa er jiang” in China .

Heng actually pronounced as “hung”…… but not associated with the Hung in Hung-Gar

If the HungGar iron wire form or Karate’s Sanchin kata can be associated to those statues is probably up to individual speculation, I think there is a plausible connection

My personal opinion is that Iron Wire and Sanchin are two very different animals. IW uses several distinct and specific vocalizations, where Sanchin, from what I have seen, may use no vocalizations or may use vocalizations that are nonspecific and are simply a natural result of the expulsion of air with the tension employed.

My minimal understanding of IW is that the different specific sounds, when coupled with specific movements, has some benefit for specific internal organs. There is nothing haphazard about the sounds and where they are placed within the form. I have no idea how this theory was derived or whether it works at all, but that is a minimalist description of the fundamental idea.

I have never seen nor heard that Sanchin has a similar theory upon which it is built.