Wing Woo Gar
Grandmaster
Is anyone here proficient with this form?
Anybody familiar with Tid Sin Kuen/iron wire form?
- Thread starter Wing Woo Gar
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Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Ive seen it done a couple of times, but that is all.
punisher73
Senior Master
Ditto as Flying Crane, I have seen the form and have done some parts of it, but not proficient in it.
Used it as a compare/contrast to the Sanchin that I do.
Used it as a compare/contrast to the Sanchin that I do.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
It is a strange form from the perspective of an outsider who is not educated in the concepts that it is built upon. Visually it appears to use a lot of tension in the movement, which look to be fairly abstract and without obvious combat applications. That abstraction does not bother me, as Chinese forms are sometimes built that way to develop other aspects that are not always direct combat interpretation.
What is most odd, to most people, is the vocalizations that go with the movement. There are several and at times it can sound like laughter and it is done loud and projected. The first time I saw the form demonstrated was some 25 years ago in San Francisco, by Y.C. Wong. I found it so odd, and given my own introverted personality I actually felt that if I ever trained Hung Ga, maybe I would just skip that form. And at that time I was dating a woman who had a deep interest in Hung Ga.
I’ve heard that people who dedicate themselves to this kind of training with the tension, run the risk of developing heart disease and high blood pressure and don’t always live a long life. There is at least a recognition among the Hung Ga folks that it needs to be done properly or you can be injured by it. I do not know what skills or attributes or conditioning the form intends to develop, nor how well it does so.
What is most odd, to most people, is the vocalizations that go with the movement. There are several and at times it can sound like laughter and it is done loud and projected. The first time I saw the form demonstrated was some 25 years ago in San Francisco, by Y.C. Wong. I found it so odd, and given my own introverted personality I actually felt that if I ever trained Hung Ga, maybe I would just skip that form. And at that time I was dating a woman who had a deep interest in Hung Ga.
I’ve heard that people who dedicate themselves to this kind of training with the tension, run the risk of developing heart disease and high blood pressure and don’t always live a long life. There is at least a recognition among the Hung Ga folks that it needs to be done properly or you can be injured by it. I do not know what skills or attributes or conditioning the form intends to develop, nor how well it does so.
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Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
I found a video clip of Y.C. Wong doing the form.
I think that in Western society, practicing this form with vocalization out in a city park someplace would get some funny looks by passers-by. Not that that should govern one’s training.
I think that in Western society, practicing this form with vocalization out in a city park someplace would get some funny looks by passers-by. Not that that should govern one’s training.
windwalker099
Master Black Belt
A long while back had a friend who practiced hung gar .....he once showed me some of his practice of it..There are sounds associated with it..
Seemed a lot like some of the Sanchin (三戦), practices some Japanese and Korean styles used
Seemed a lot like some of the Sanchin (三戦), practices some Japanese and Korean styles used
Wing Woo Gar
Grandmaster
You are saying out loud most of what I know and have been told. It is an external/internal fortifying form meant for self development. The sounds correspond to stimulating different organs meridians and places in the body. It is part of our system as James Wing Woo was a Hung Gar student in Canton China in the 1930s. I did not learn it, but saw long term older students perform it in Sigungs Kwoon in Hollywood. One of the students that took over that gym was a student there for 45 years and is teaching me the form but I do have concerns about it because despite knowing the form my Sifu hesitated to teach it because he said, “Lam Sai Wing Kung fooed himself to death practicing these things”. I never learned the whole thing then because my Sifu died. Nevertheless, I am intrigued and was curious if anyone with experience would chime in. It’s certainly nuanced and unusual in that it is the only internal form like it in an otherwise strictly hard external style. Some of the motions that are coordinated with the sounds are likewise unusual… it’s an interesting rabbit hole.
Wing Woo Gar
Grandmaster
My concern is mostly incorrect pronunciation and or incorrect coordination. My understanding is that incorrect practice can cause illness of a sort.
Wing Woo Gar
Grandmaster
Sanchin is also very similar to a Shaolin white crane form from Yang Jwing Ming.
I've don't know the form but from what I saw there are some things in it that I have use in training other forms.
I don't do alot of tension training and to be honest I think I have too much tension. I'm often trying to relax the body. There are benefits to the training but only if you are planning to use hung gar techniques in fighting or sparring. Other than that there's really no need to build power and strength in that manner
Training it to pass it on is probably the most use people get out of it.
I don't do alot of tension training and to be honest I think I have too much tension. I'm often trying to relax the body. There are benefits to the training but only if you are planning to use hung gar techniques in fighting or sparring. Other than that there's really no need to build power and strength in that manner
Training it to pass it on is probably the most use people get out of it.
Wing Woo Gar
Grandmaster
We do use Hung Gar, it’s a part of our overall system.
punisher73
Senior Master
Yes, I have seen a couple white crane forms that would have been the basis of Okinawa's Sanchin form.
San Zhan and Sam Chien
I would also agree that there is a lot more direct correlation between those and Sanchin and the Iron Wire form.
wanderingstudent
Orange Belt
I learned the set, and have been cautioned about mis-practice. Much like Flying Crane, I planned on never making those "silly" noises. But, as I progressed and understood the training...
I also began to feel the Iron Wire should be a fluid set, each lineage/school/person have their own version. Not to complicate the style, but to expand the teachings.
But, to address your concerns Wing Woo Gar. As long as you keep your Chi low in the abdomin, you should not have an issue. My Chen style teacher explained high Chi causes tension in the chest, and around the heart- this is not good. Also, high Chi goes into the head and affects the brain- also not good.
I also began to feel the Iron Wire should be a fluid set, each lineage/school/person have their own version. Not to complicate the style, but to expand the teachings.
But, to address your concerns Wing Woo Gar. As long as you keep your Chi low in the abdomin, you should not have an issue. My Chen style teacher explained high Chi causes tension in the chest, and around the heart- this is not good. Also, high Chi goes into the head and affects the brain- also not good.
isshinryuronin
Senior Master
A rather shortsighted view IMO. After a while, there would be no Iron Wire, having been changed over time it would be unrecognizable. And can anyone have the experience and skill to "expand the teachings?" Best left to the lineage master or his senior students.
Wing Woo Gar
Grandmaster
Appreciate your contribution, thank you for weighing in.
Wing Woo Gar
Grandmaster
Really? I’m surprised to hear that. It is certainly a Hung Gar form. I believe it was created by Lam Sai Wing himself. I could classify it as a hard Qi Gong type of form but it is unique in a few aspects.
Wing Woo Gar
Grandmaster
What I think he means is that practicing the form will expand the basic tenets of Hung Gar in general, which could naturally expand one’s understanding of the teachings. Not that he might change the aspects of the form itself.
Wing Woo Gar
Grandmaster
Hung Gar and Wing Chun together? The basic stance in each would seem to be somewhat at odds. Interesting choices to mix.
wanderingstudent
Orange Belt
I am not poo-pooing tradition, learn the generally accepted choreography. The Iron Wire is the highest set and internal. It is based off of theory- the 12 bridges. Who cares about the postures, if the energy is expressed to reflect the theory.
Yes, follow a strong lineage. But, at some point you have to evolve and grow beyond that; take it to the next level.
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