An earlier definiton of Ju?

[SFC JeffJ]

Several years ago, I read in a book that an earlier, maybe pre 1868, definition of Ju was lightning. Tried to do a search on here to see if anyone had brought that up before with no luck. Has anyone else heard of this before?

And no, unfortunately I can't remember where I read that.

Thanks,

JeffJ

 

[tshadowchaser]

I do not recall ever hearing that but I live in a small world at times
I hope someone else can help out here

 

[bignick]

New one to me...but being I only speak english...and sometimes barely at that as well, I guess I can't really argue about the origins of japanese terms...

 

[green meanie]

First time that I've heard this too. Interesting. :asian:

 

[BlackCatBonz]

I've never heard that.

 

[pstarr]

No, the ju of judo and jujutsu means something akin to "resilient, yielding..." It's often translated as "soft" but that's something of a misnomer because the English word doesn't give us the real feel of it. In fact, many of us kind of equate "softness" with "emptiness" and in this case, that's a serious error.

Ju is pronounced as rou in Chinese (same character). The character for rou/ju is comprised of two radicals - one meaning "wood" and the other meaning "flexible." While some woods are not at all flexible, some, like the willow, are very resilient. You can bend them with some effort but they snap back as soon as you let go.

This is the real ju of jujutsu. Not soft, not empty...resilient and alive.

 

[elder999]

Pretty sure that "lightning" is denkou, or raikou, with some other variants.

As for ju, maybe you mean "lightening", though I have no idea how that is said or written in Japanese....

 

[Carol]

I wonder if "Ju" defined as "Lightning" or was it defined "Lightening"

 

[Carol]

DOH! Great minds think alike Elder999

 

[Fu_Bag]

Hi Jeff,

After just finishing Kano-sensei's "Mind Over Muscle" book, I have to say that he had a different definition of "Ju" than the resilient, yielding one. What he stresses repeatedly is that his Kodokan Judo is about the most efficient use of mental and physical energy. Maybe the "energy" part is where someone came up with the "lightning" translation? I'm not sure about that but I can definitely highly recommend Kano-sensei's book to anyone involved in the martial arts.

As far as earlier, or maybe different, translations or meanings of "Ju", I thought I'd put a few thoughts out there to continue this conversation. I've learned that, when considering translations, you have to consider what influenced the author. With this in mind, many things written in Japanese have an enormous depth and are also influenced by Chinese variations. Below are some of the Chinese (Pinyin) translations for "Ju":

entirely; without exception

adhere; capture; restrain

to spy; to lie in ambush

net for catching rabbits

to bring up; to rear (as in raising a child)

receive with both hands

destroy; to stop

to lift; to hold up; to cite; to enumerate; to act; to raise; to choose; to elect

a social club

diked pond

very large; huge; tremendous; gigantic

to fear

to resist; to repel; to refuse

act in accordance with; seize

form gathering; gather

at a distance of; distance; to be apart

be based upon; squat

hurry; fast; suddenly

contribute to a feast

great; hard iron

a saw; to saw

hurricane


You can view these for yourself at:

http://www.mandarintools.com/cgi-bin/wordlook.pl?word=ju&searchtype=pinyin&where=whole&audio=on


I'll start with my take on some of these translations in a new post.

Hope this helps.


Fu Bag

 

[Fu_Bag]

OK. Here we go....

One Japanese translation of "Ju" is "ten". This isn't just a surface value though. 10 is used in the saying "10,000 changes, no surprises". 10 is also defined as "10 directions" i.e. North, South, East, West, the directions from which you can give and receive techniques, etc.. The 1+0 of 10 = 1. Kano-sensei wrote about the "One Way" idea as well. 1 is also a restarting of the natural cycle from 1 to 9. In effect, that could also mean that "Ju" is the base of life itself.

OK. On to the Chinese variations...

----------------------------------------------------------------------
form gathering; gather
entirely; without exception
be based upon; squat
to lift; to hold up; to cite; to enumerate; to act; to raise; to choose; to elect
to bring up; to rear (as in raising a child)
contribute to a feast
a social club
---------------------------------------------------------------------


To me, after reading Kano-sensei's writings, what the above means is to gather all of your mental and physical energy and use it to develop yourself, through a holistic application of the most effective use of your mental and physical energy, for the sake of improving both yourself, and society.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
at a distance of; distance; to be apart
adhere; capture; restrain
receive with both hands
to spy; to lie in ambush
to resist; to repel; to refuse
net for catching rabbits
act in accordance with; seize
destroy; to stop
hurry; fast; suddenly
great; hard iron
a saw; to saw
hurricane
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


The above translations could refer to the techniques of the "Ju". This - "diked pond" - could be translated in a certain way if you consider the idea of a person's budo being a pure, natural spring. In that sense, what "Ju" could mean is confining their budo to themselves so that they cannot apply it to you or others.

Anywho..... Enjoy the fortune cookie!!!

Have a nice day/night all.


Fu Bag

 

[SFC JeffJ]

Wow Fu Bag, very interesting. I'm constantly amazed at the debth of the languages of the far east. Thanks for all that great information.

And thanks for the book recomendation. That'll be going on my list for sure.

Jeff

 

[Fu_Bag]

Thanks, Jeff. I know what you mean. There's such a depth there that you can literally hide things in plain sight. You're quite welcome for the info. That's what Martial Talk is about, right? Well, that and sharing recipes...

Enjoy Kano-sensei's book!

Fu Bag

 

[SFC JeffJ]

Thanks, Jeff. I know what you mean. There's such a depth there that you can literally hide things in plain sight. You're quite welcome for the info. That's what Martial Talk is about, right? Well, that and sharing recipes...

Enjoy Kano-sensei's book!

Fu Bag

We should have a recipe exhange room here. Heck, I'd probably only leave to cook and train then. Tell Bob I'd mod it, lol.

Jeff

 

[Fu_Bag]

Jeff,

I agree!!

Remember, two translations of "Ju" are "contribute to a feast" and "a social club" and everyone knows how important those things are....

p.s. Isn't it great how you can keep things on topic?

Fu Bag

 

[SFC JeffJ]

Um, what were we talking about?

 

[Fu_Bag]

I think we were talking about hurricanes.

 

[Monadnock]

Several years ago, I read in a book that an earlier, maybe pre 1868, definition of Ju was lightning. Tried to do a search on here to see if anyone had brought that up before with no luck. Has anyone else heard of this before?

And no, unfortunately I can't remember where I read that.

Thanks,

JeffJ

A lot of times, older texts do not use the proper romanization. It could have been Ju, Juu...

The closest thing I found was shuurai, for lightning strike, but the shuu portion means "Attack, advance on, succeed to..." and the Rai means "Thunder, lightening bolt."

 

[Fu_Bag]

I was thinking a little more about where the phrase about "Lightning" may have originated. It seems possible that it may have been a "dojo moment" where someone was told something along the lines of "No, no, no, no, no. We're not just applying static electricity here, we're doing lightning strikes!". The most efficient use of mental and physical energy is stressed often in Kano-sensei's book. I can only imagine that it would've been similar in the dojo.

 

[SFC JeffJ]

I've gone through all the books in my library now that might have had that statement in there. That took a good while, but didn't find it. Must have been something I borrowed. Which leads me to think that it wasn't a very good book in the first place if I didn't run out and get a copy for myself. If I do happen to come across where I read that, I'll be sure to let y'all know.

Jeff