Aikido vs Double Leg TD.

[TSDTexan]

In this video we see aikido showing applications for double leg takedowns

In this next video we watch combatants in a tournament fight with the double leg take down.

The young boy was applying said technique with good form.

Let's discuss:

 

[TSDTexan]

I observe that in the first video the defender was not running towards the person doing the double leg takedown.

In the second, they both ran towards each other.

I also observe that in the first video, he wasn't surprised by the dltd attempt.

In the second, she was caught off guard, and totally surprised.

The first was a demo, the second a competitive match.

Now those obviously have been brought up, let's find other things to discuss

 

[Tony Dismukes]

The defenses shown were reasonable for the attack being given - which was not anywhere close to a good double-leg takedown attempt. Just about every detail of the double-leg was incorrect.

Practicing against techniques used by another style is good. Practicing against a poor imitation of a technique you don't understand from another style is not so useful. That's why it's useful to have friends who practice other arts so you can invite them over to show you how the attack really works.

 

[drop bear]

I showed my coach. And if there is one thing he hates it is a poorly executed double leg.

 

[TSDTexan]

The defenses shown were reasonable for the attack being given - which was not anywhere close to a good double-leg takedown attempt. Just about every detail of the double-leg was incorrect.

Practicing against techniques used by another style is good. Practicing against a poor imitation of a technique you don't understand from another style is not so useful. That's why it's useful to have friends who practice other arts so you can invite them over to show you how the attack really works.

Not just that, but it lulls a practitioner into a false sense of preparedness.

Confidence in one's art and it's techniques is essential if one gets into a real fight.

Doubt destroys from within by causing fear and hesitant responses.

But why load blanks, instead of bullets?
Because you are told that the bullets are live ammo?

Nothing like trying your best, in self defense, and having your hard earned "solid" skills shown up as "weak kung-fu" (70's movie term, no offense to any kung-further guys) to devastate your sense of who you are as a practitioner, and what your art is about.

One other thing that makes me mad, is due to Judo's international rules body making rules so that judoka no longer train against single or double leg takedowns.

Judo at large is losing its effectiveness because of sport judo... fewer people hand down techniques and counters... because of the sanctioning body.

Training only for the match under match rules vs training for the street, and the matches.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You should always redirect your opponent's arms away from your entering path before you get his legs. This way, his arms won't give you any problem. Trying to depend on your speed is risky, What if your opponent is faster than you?

How to enter and apply your technique safely without been kicked, kneed, punched, and elbowed is called "entering strategy". A good entering strategy for double legs is "double downward separate hands".

You use your

- left hand to control your opponent's right wrist.
- right hand to control his left wrist.
- right leading leg to jam his right leading leg.

If you "guide" your opponent's arms down and away from his legs, when you release your hands and get his legs, his arms won't be fast enough to give you any trouble. What you want is to create 1/4 second safe window to achieve your goal. A double downward parry can work as good too.

 

[hoshin1600]

The defenses shown were reasonable for the attack being given - which was not anywhere close to a good double-leg takedown attempt. Just about every detail of the double-leg was incorrect.

Practicing against techniques used by another style is good. Practicing against a poor imitation of a technique you don't understand from another style is not so useful. That's why it's useful to have friends who practice other arts so you can invite them over to show you how the attack really works.

to help the disscusion could you point out 2 or 3 major problems with the first clips attempt at the take down. the attempts look lazy but i am looking for your input on the aspects of the attempt that would deem the aikido response ineffective.

 

[hoshin1600]

since i am more a stand up fighter i want to make a point about the "jab" at 2:20 the aikido teacher plays the jab off like its nothing and unimportant. my comment would be the same as other posters about the double leg take down. its a horrible jab, thus the teacher will gain no insight into defending against jabs (and the follow up after the jab). a good jab has a few functions but to narrow it down for this discussion, the jab as shown should have been done within hitting range. it was done too far away. this is a major problem with aikido. the correct mai-ai for aikido is much greater than other styles. its the tendency for aikido people to imitate punches but they always keep that same long range distance. if the attacker would have moved into a closer range then threw that front hand, it would have connected and then the double leg take down would have been impossible to defend as shown.

 

[hoshin1600]

as for the second clip. it was great. i have no idea about the context of the competition but that girl looked like a TKD or karate fighter in the side stance waiting for a point fighting match and she clearly had a WTF moment as the other kid took her down.

 

[JowGaWolf]

In this video we see aikido showing applications for double leg takedowns

In this next video we watch combatants in a tournament fight with the double leg take down.

The young boy was applying said technique with good form.

Let's discuss:

First video is a Style vs Style take down. The takedowns are done as someone who practices Aikido would do. Takedowns should simulate (as best as possible) what one would get during a real conflict, and if possible the practitioner should simulate takedowns (as best as possible) that are done in other fighting systems. Take down defense is not a one size fits all. The first video would be more like a concept video and a discussion on technique and not application.

The second video broke my heart. That child was totally unprepared and untrained to defend against a takedown. The blame for that lies completely on the teacher. I could go into detail about the second video but it wouldn't provide value. It would be like me doing a double leg take down on an 8 year old and trying to validate my technique.

The only thing I will say about the second video is that the guy was gentle and the girl learned a couple of valuable life lessons.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

to help the disscusion could you point out 2 or 3 major problems with the first clips attempt at the take down. the attempts look lazy but i am looking for your input on the aspects of the attempt that would deem the aikido response ineffective.

Obvious problems with the "double-leg takedown" attempt:

1. No set up for the shot. This is actually forgivable when demonstrating a basic defense, because one purpose of a proper setup is to pre-emptively shut down counters. Learning how to counter the setups takes you into more advanced territory, so I'll give them a pass on that when introducing basic defenses.
2. The shot was coming in from too far away. For a basic double-leg takedown, you should be able to reach out your hand and touch your opponent on the head before initiating the takedown entry.
3. No level change. Instead of bending his knees, the attacker just bent at the waist and dove forward head first.
4. No penetration step. See #3 above.
5. Attackers head was down. When shooting for a double leg, you should never be looking at the ground. If you do, a competent defender will make you face plant.
6. On the initial demo, where the defender allows the attacker to complete the double-leg, it's clear that he only has the crudest idea of how to actually finish the takedown. There are a lot of legitimate ways to finish a double-leg, and the one demonstrated was one of the least effective method. This is mostly irrelevant to the defenses shown, however, because the other flaws listed above allowed the defender to shut down the attack well before it got to that point.

The defenses shown seem reasonably legitimate counters against an untrained tackle, which is what the demonstrated attack was. A double leg takedown is not an untrained tackle.

 

[Buka]

What really bothers me is seeing boys competing against girls.

 

[hoshin1600]

What really bothers me is seeing boys competing against girls.

i never went up against girls when younger. it was only as an adult rolling BJJ in the dojo that i really had do deal with women, and their really good. again i have no context for the video but if girls or women want to compete against guys i say good for them. but then the other side of the coin is if they dont want to compete against guys they shouldnt have to. there may be a difference between striking arts and grappling.

 

[Buka]

i never went up against girls when younger. it was only as an adult rolling BJJ in the dojo that i really had do deal with women, and their really good. again i have no context for the video but if girls or women want to compete against guys i say good for them. but then the other side of the coin is if they dont want to compete against guys they shouldnt have to. there may be a difference between striking arts and grappling.

I'm only speaking of competition. Training/fighting with/against, well, yeah, of course. But competition, hell no. Especially for kids. Against everything I stand for teaching any kids, especially boys. And it's a no win situation for a young man when dealing with his peers. "You beat a girl, big deal?" "You lost to a girl, you must really suck"

I remember back a couple years ago, somebody posted a vid of his karate point fighting match. I think there were two matches, actually. Wanted some feedback. He was fighting a woman. I didn't even know what to say.

 

[hoshin1600]

The shot was coming in from too far away. For a basic double-leg takedown, you should be able to reach out your hand and touch your opponent on the head before initiating the takedown entry.

this ties in with what i was saying. aikido generally starts at a much greater distance then other arts. so by habit everything they do is from outside. and like i had said if your within distance to make contact with a jab that takedown is near impossible to react to with an aikido type defense.

 

[drop bear]

to help the disscusion could you point out 2 or 3 major problems with the first clips attempt at the take down. the attempts look lazy but i am looking for your input on the aspects of the attempt that would deem the aikido response ineffective.

It is incorrect lifting.

 

[hoshin1600]

I'm only speaking of competition. Training/fighting with/against, well, yeah, of course. But competition, hell no. Especially for kids. Against everything I stand for teaching any kids, especially boys. And it's a no win situation for a young man when dealing with his peers. "You beat a girl, big deal?" "You lost to a girl, you must really suck"

I remember back a couple years ago, somebody posted a vid of his karate point fighting match. I think there were two matches, actually. Wanted some feedback. He was fighting a woman. I didn't even know what to say.

i agree with stand up fighting. there is too much of a disparity of force. but how about with grappling only? if they are in the same weight class. i dont know i have seen a lot of great women out there. but you have more experience in this then i do.

 

[hoshin1600]

It is incorrect lifting.

good analogy.

 

[Buka]

i agree with stand up fighting. there is too much of a disparity of force. but how about with grappling only? if they are in the same weight class. i dont know i have seen a lot of great women out there. but you have more experience in this then i do.

I've been smoked grappling by women grapplers in class before. (And I wouldn't have a problem getting smoked in competition by one, either.) But I don't think they should ever compete against each other, even in the same weight class.

And I tell, ya, I've been around a lot of guys from Brazil. Can't even imagine them allowing women and men competing.

 

[hoshin1600]

I've been smoked grappling by women grapplers in class before.

i was looking for the imoji where the smile face bows down and says "we are not worthy" but i guess this will have to do