Aikido - Bagua Connection

[Matt Stone]

Not sure if this is touchy ground or not.

As a bagua student, I have heard a lot of Bagua people comment that Aikido was either:

a. inspired by Bagua
b. based on Bagua
c. a cheap imitation of Bagua

All depending on who you talk to.

Now, as a Bagua student, I can believe that there are some folks that would love to have an art as esteemed as Aikido attributed to them somehow... Like folks trying to hang on the accomplishments of others never happens in martial arts, right?

However, having taken Aikido very briefly a few years back, I did notice some odd similarities here and there, small things that seemed strangely out of place for a Japanese art...

Just wondering what other folks' take is on this issue.

Thanks!

:samurai: :samurai:

 

[eternalwhitebelt]

Read B.K. Francis' book The Power of Internal Martial Arts. He talks about this.

 

[Yari]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1


As a bagua student,

What is bagua?

/Yari

 

[Morpheus]

There are always going to be strong visual correlations between japanese and chinese martial arts.

It is certainly true that China influenced a massive influence on the martial development of Japan and significant amounts of japanese arts originated in the teachings of exiled warriors, pilgrims and so on.

However, to say that they did not develop into their own after centuries passed would be a bit like saying that a japanese television is a pale imitation of an english television just because the principles did not originate with the japanese. Maybe that's a bit of an awkward analogy but I think it stands.

Japanese methods of joint-locking, balance-breaking and circular movement are as sophisticated as those in chinese arts such as bagua, chin-na and fast-wrestling, and indeed much more widespread.

In the particular case of aikido I would say that similarities are hereditary as well as accidental- there are only so many ways to move the human body and if you start from the same principle of redirection of force then similarities will arise.

Ueshiba's main influences remain the older japanese arts he was exposed to such as Daito-ryu aikijujutsu.

 

[Matt Stone]

I have a friend here in Tokyo that is studying both Bagua and Daito-ryu, and while you are correct in the statement that there are a finite number of ways that the human body can be manipulated, Daito-ryu looks nothing like Bagua at all (at least from what I have seen of it...).

I was just curious. I don't subscribe to the theory that Aikido found it's genesis in Bagua... While Ueshiba did spend time in China, and may well have been exposed to Bagua while there, Aikido is different in enough respects that its origin could be attributed to many different factors.

Was just trying to get some other people's thoughts.

Thanks!

:samurai: :samurai:

 

[Chiduce]

I do not know about the ancient connection or the near past connection. Yet, i have seen and read about the present day connection in the art of Cheng Hsin T'iu Shou or "The Art Of Effortless Power". The founder of this style (Chen Shou Work) is Peter Ralston. It's roots consist of aikido, baguazhang, tai chi ch'uan, as well as other arts; particularly, judo, jujitsu, boxing and ontology or ("the study of being"). I personally have used several of his concepts and experienced good results from them. I will quote a statement by Frank LaManna of the Tai Chi Journal; "What Peter Ralston does remarkably well is to clarify what the classics have been trying to tell us, and to offer concrete direction on how to continue growing and become better in the internal arts. You can't fix Cheng Hsin on the wall with a pin, because as you try, you realize that Cheng Hsin is the wall, and the pin, and action, and the intent". Now, i'am not trying to get into a debate on this subject. These are just my comments about this system and it's training philosophy. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

 

[Humble artist]

Let´s see.
Circular motion is a big thing in both arts,I can´t really say how it goes like in Ba Gua but I do have a fairly reasonable reason to believe this is the biggest thing they have in common.
And they are internal arts but I could say that about many others...
I´m not sure if there is a total agreement about if Ueshiba studied Bagwa or not but this has been discussed at www.aikidojournal.com and there are plenty of more experienced players in there...so what the heck are you reading my post for?
I hope this helps a bit.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Morpheus

There are always going to be strong visual correlations between japanese and chinese martial arts.

It is certainly true that China influenced a massive influence on the martial development of Japan and significant amounts of Japanese arts originated in the teachings of exiled warriors, pilgrims and so on.

exiled warriors, pilgrims ????

Never heard of such a thing in Japan.
I know that the Japanese would go to different countries and kidnap people and bring them back as slaves.
There is a whole village in southern Japan that was started as a slave colony. They had kidnap several Korean potters and brought them back to make/teach pottery techniques.
Exiled warriors..........maybe captured prisoners but not likely since Japanese didn't usually take prisoners in battle.
Pilgrims, most assuredly not.
Most of the "cultural" exchanges would most likely have been done by government officials and religious clerics from either side.

Originally posted by Morpheus

However, to say that they did not develop into their own after centuries passed would be a bit like saying that a japanese television is a pale imitation of an english television just because the principles did not originate with the japanese. Maybe that's a bit of an awkward analogy but I think it stands.

The concept is probably correct, but Aikido is not a very old art.............possibly not even 100 yrs old yet.

Originally posted by Morpheus

Japanese methods of joint-locking, balance-breaking and circular movement are as sophisticated as those in chinese arts such as bagua, chin-na and fast-wrestling, and indeed much more widespread.

I would say that some Chinese arts are far more sophisticated than Japanese in this area. Bagua is one of them.

Originally posted by Morpheus

In the particular case of aikido I would say that similarities are hereditary as well as accidental- there are only so many ways to move the human body and if you start from the same principle of redirection of force then similarities will arise.

This is true. There are only so many ways to move the joints of the body...........the major differences arise on how one gets them to do it.
Some folks claim that Tuite (an Okinawan art found within karate) is just another form of Aikido, however, after working with the 5th and 6th dan Aikido instructors that I know both they and I don't think so. Actually we found only one wrist lock that was slightly similar. The approach, stances, and method of control were all very different as well.