Afghan Civilians Slaughtered By U.S. Troops

MA-Caver

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If there's already a thread about this I failed to find it.
What is it that causes someone to go nuts and do this... it's not the first time. Afghans are people too... not lower-caste types that are disposable just because they don't have wi-fi or any other of our ultra-modern conveniences. What gets me is that this one soldier was able to get away long enough to commit this atrocity. That their base commander isn't keeping a watchful eye upon his troops. Yeah, they're all adults (supposedly) and well trained fighting machines and bla bla bla but this kind of thing just pisses me off.
Winning the hearts and minds of the people... yeah right. Get their trust so they can come closer and we can blow them away.
Dammit I'm so pissed about this. Burning their holy books and murdering their people in the middle of the night. I thought we were fighting the enemy not becoming one.
If that soldier tries some b.s. about how they were secretly insurgents or Taliban supporters then he can kiss my ***. Small children are always and forever non-combatants.
http://news.yahoo.com/us-soldier-kills-16-afghans-deepening-crisis-164242200.html
Obama's response isn't harsh enough I think. It's an outrage and shameful
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/...ing-rampage-afghanistan-tragic-190511568.html
All the more reason to pull out. If the Taliban has been weakened as much as they say then fine...

This won't do us any good if we keep trying to build up a reputation that we're supposed to be helping people against their oppressors, then turn around and one (or more) of our own starts killing them. How the hell are they going to trust us in the future? How is ANY other country going to trust us when stories like these keep cropping up.
Sadly they overshadow any heart-warming altruistic stories that have come out of that area. It's barbaric and savagery and it's not the FIRST TIME!

:soapbox:
 

Sukerkin

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I can understand your rage, Caver, and I am the last person in the world to be an apologist for the misuse of force.

But I have noted before in these forums that it is a testament to the character and training of the modern armed forces that they don't just open up and lay waste to all that falls under their gaze, given the immense stress and danger they endure.
 

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It's a tragic symptom of the misallocation force resources. I like the euphemisim...

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Bill Mattocks

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What is it that causes someone to go nuts and do this... it's not the first time.

I don't know. I know it's terrible when things like this happens. It puts the troops in danger also, it's not like anyone wants this to happen.

Afghans are people too... not lower-caste types that are disposable just because they don't have wi-fi or any other of our ultra-modern conveniences.

Agreed.

What gets me is that this one soldier was able to get away long enough to commit this atrocity. That their base commander isn't keeping a watchful eye upon his troops. Yeah, they're all adults (supposedly) and well trained fighting machines and bla bla bla but this kind of thing just pisses me off.

I don't know what the local regulations are at that base, but rules on ground forces leaving base in a war zone vary. In areas considered relatively safe, it is not unusual for troops not to be confined to base at all times.

Winning the hearts and minds of the people... yeah right. Get their trust so they can come closer and we can blow them away.

I understand your anger, but you must know that even though this is not the first time, it's also not typical or even common. It's quite rare.

Dammit I'm so pissed about this. Burning their holy books and murdering their people in the middle of the night. I thought we were fighting the enemy not becoming one.

As I understand it, the burning of the Korans was through stupidity, not through an attempt to dishonor their holy books. Apparently, the Korans themselves had been given to prisoners to read, and they had written notes in the margins intended as messages to each other. The books were confiscated and incinerated with the garbage. The problem was that a local found them before they were completely burned; it's not like it was a public book-burning for the purpose of insulting their religion.

If that soldier tries some b.s. about how they were secretly insurgents or Taliban supporters then he can kiss my ***. Small children are always and forever non-combatants.
http://news.yahoo.com/us-soldier-kills-16-afghans-deepening-crisis-164242200.html
Obama's response isn't harsh enough I think. It's an outrage and shameful
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/...ing-rampage-afghanistan-tragic-190511568.html
All the more reason to pull out. If the Taliban has been weakened as much as they say then fine...

I think it is time for us to leave as well. Once again, our mission, which no one even seems to know what it is anymore, has failed.

This won't do us any good if we keep trying to build up a reputation that we're supposed to be helping people against their oppressors, then turn around and one (or more) of our own starts killing them. How the hell are they going to trust us in the future? How is ANY other country going to trust us when stories like these keep cropping up.
Sadly they overshadow any heart-warming altruistic stories that have come out of that area. It's barbaric and savagery and it's not the FIRST TIME!

:soapbox:

We were never trying to help the Afghans against their oppressors. We went in to drive the Taliban from power and get OBL. We did that, eventually. Now it's time to go.
 

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First, from what I heard it was one guy, and we don't know why he did it. Second, burning Korans is not necessarily forbidden...

http://pjmedia.com/blog/burning-defaced-korans-islam-approved/

In reality, it is not against Islamic law to burn Korans, as two of the following three points make clear.
First, and most importantly: authoritative fatwas exist legitimizing the burning of Korans in situations such as prevailed at Parwan. Exhibit number one is this Saudi fatwa, which spells out the conditions for disposing of Korans by either burying them or consigning them to the flames, “thus imitating Uthmaan,” the third caliph:
  • If it has torn pages;
  • If it has pages or suras (chapters) out of order;
  • If the printed text is somehow amiss with errors or typos;
  • If any of the pages are missing.
The “Online Islamic Academy” SunniPath adds: “One should not write within the Koran nor highlight it.” Taken together, these Sunni sources clearly declare that writing in a Koran is tantamount to “corrupting” the Islamic holy book and that disposal of the corrupted book by burning is perfectly acceptable.
Second: the aforementioned fatwa adduces Uthman, the third caliph of Islam (644-656 AD), because he is well-known in the Islamic world for having burned “Korans.” During his reign there were several different collected versions of Muhammad’s “revelations” circulating in the various urban centers of the rapidly expanding (by conquest) Islamic empire. According to Islamic sources, Uthman ordered a council held in Medina where any extant written or oral sources were consulted in order to create the authoritative Koran, after which he ordered the caliphal armies to burn the now-pass矇 “Korans” wherever they might be found. Granted, these were not copies of the “true Koran” according to Muslims today. But even Saudi muftis adduce Uthman’s actions, presumably because even these false Korans contained some elements of the Muhammadan “revelation.” So the torching of obsolescent scriptures was legitimized in Islamic history by the leader many Sunnis consider to be second in prestige only to Muhammad himself.

The “Online Islamic Academy” SunniPath adds: “One should not write within the Koran nor highlight it.” Taken together, these Sunni sources clearly declare that writing in a Koran is tantamount to “corrupting” the Islamic holy book and that disposal of the corrupted book by burning is perfectly acceptable.
Also, before we get too outraged at the act of a lone soldier whose motivations haven't been disclosed yet, remember the U.S. soldiers just murdered by the very people they knew and trained and worked with in the most secure areas of Afghanistan. I'm not saying this is retaliation for that, before anyone tries to say that, but that of the tens of thousands of men and women we have over there, ours and our allies, we have gone well out of our way to not target civilians and to protect them and to give them a chance to not live in terror of islamic radicals. Let's not forget that before we attack our own people over the act of one guy.
 
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Tez3

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Oh lord help me I'm agreeing with Bili again.

The news headlines here are that one rogue soldier now in custody went out of his camp before and gunned down two households. there may according to reports have been more than one but the American authorities are still investigating.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17334643

This is not a policy by any of the Allies, the soldier concerned has been arrested and is in custody. He will be court martialed I'm sure and if found guilty he will be punished, all this is being made open to the press and the Afghans. If this were policy or came as a result from orders we would here nothing about it. Being cold blooded about it an act like this would do nothing to further the allies cause in Afghan, there is no point in killing civilians in this way. If they'd be killed by Allied soldiers in disguise as Taliban one could imagine it would stir the people up against the Taliban but this isn't the case.

One can look at similiar cases where a lone gunman in America has gone through a building shooting and killing people, do you blame all Americans then for that? Do you blame all the people who live in the area of Columbine school for the killings there? Of course not, you blame the people responsible so don't blame 'the military' for the aberrations of one man. The blame lies fairly and squarely n his head, no one elses. As with suicides one can often not tell what is going on it someones head, he may have appearred perfectly normal to his colleagues but harbouring terrible thoughts until he snapped and snapped he did.


Soldiers are mothers and fathers too in many cases, they have families and they really wouldn't kill civilians if it could be at all helped, they aren't targeted deliberately and sorrow is felt when civilians are killed. I imagine the soldier responsible is being kept detained for his own safety as much as anything else as I can tell you I know his fellow soldiers will not agree or like what he's done. No one is justifying it, no one excusing it. The American ambassador in Kabul has gone on air saying he is totally sorry for what has happened, an apology that is hard to make because he knows the actions of this soldier are inexcusable and so so wrong, he knows too that certain people on both sides, as shown here, will make much of this. However one doesn't expect to have one's own soldiers vilified by their own people for the act of one nutter.
 

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If there's already a thread about this I failed to find it.
What is it that causes someone to go nuts and do this... it's not the first time.

No it isn't the first time; not in this conflict, nor in many others around the world. This is an abberation. Who knows when some individuals are going to go over the edge?

Afghans are people too... not lower-caste types that are disposable just because they don't have wi-fi or any other of our ultra-modern conveniences. What gets me is that this one soldier was able to get away long enough to commit this atrocity. That their base commander isn't keeping a watchful eye upon his troops. Yeah, they're all adults (supposedly) and well trained fighting machines and bla bla bla but this kind of thing just pisses me off.

As a retired US soldier, I don't like it either. It doesn't make it easier for the good and sane soldiers who are still trying to do their job the right way. It is too easy to just blame the commander. Granted, the whole leadership chain has some responsibility, but the commander is probably too far up to know much if anything about that individual soldier. Even his immediate supervisors may not have been able to see danger signs. Or they may have and he may have been receiving treatment, but not have been considered such a high risk by the medical practitioners.

I don't know the rules for getting out of a compound, but in Vietnam, it wasn't uncommon for soldiers to be allowed to visit city or urban areas to mix with the people and make purchases from the local economy. I think it was looked forward to as a boost to their economy as well as a way for the locals and soldiers to meet and learn about each other. In the rural areas, it would have been considered foolish in some areas not to be armed when doing so.


Winning the hearts and minds of the people... yeah right. Get their trust so they can come closer and we can blow them away.
Dammit I'm so pissed about this. Burning their holy books and murdering their people in the middle of the night. I thought we were fighting the enemy not becoming one.
If that soldier tries some b.s. about how they were secretly insurgents or Taliban supporters then he can kiss my ***. Small children are always and forever non-combatants.

I doubt that will happen, but who knows. And what has happend, will of course, make us look like enemy to some. That is sad. I am sure there are good Afgan people and good service people. In fact, the good are probably in the majority.

http://news.yahoo.com/us-soldier-kills-16-afghans-deepening-crisis-164242200.html
Obama's response isn't harsh enough I think. It's an outrage and shameful

Frankly, the most Obama should have done was make a public statement of dismay and sorrow. He is the president, and unless you think he ordered that, or his country and military ordered that, then it is simply the deranged behavior of one individual. That is the way it should be explained and treated. By the way, I may have missed it, but did you complain so vigorously about a lack of apology from the Afgan president when our troops were killed in apparent retaliation for the buring of the Korans? They didn't even make a claim of insanity. Just asking.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/...ing-rampage-afghanistan-tragic-190511568.html
All the more reason to pull out. If the Taliban has been weakened as much as they say then fine...

This won't do us any good if we keep trying to build up a reputation that we're supposed to be helping people against their oppressors, then turn around and one (or more) of our own starts killing them. How the hell are they going to trust us in the future? How is ANY other country going to trust us when stories like these keep cropping up.
Sadly they overshadow any heart-warming altruistic stories that have come out of that area. It's barbaric and savagery and it's not the FIRST TIME!

So you do not believe there are soldiers there who are in the majority of caring to help the Afgans?

:soapbox:

Just some thoughts. Let me make in clear that I in no way justify what that soldier did. I am dismayed at the way he may make other good service men and women look. I also think unless he is shown to be legally insane, justice should (and probably will) be swift. My hope would be seeing him thrown so far back in Leavenworth that they have to pump sunlight to him. Sadly, that won't bring back those killed.
 

Tez3

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Just some thoughts. Let me make in clear that I in no way justify what that soldier did. I am dismayed at the way he may make other good service men and women look. I also think unless he is shown to be legally insane, justice should (and probably will) be swift. My hope would be seeing him thrown so far back in Leavenworth that they have to pump sunlight to him. Sadly, that won't bring back those killed.


Your response is exactly what I imagine the vast majority the military and the ex military would be, thank you. Everyone deplores what this soldier has done, no one condones it, your President shouldn't grovel, he's said he was appalled and saddened, as we all are, that's sufficient. The Afghan President, in fact no one from the Afghan government ever apologises when Afghan police or soldiers go on the rampage and kill our troops which has happened several times now both to the British, American and other countries troops.
The BBC coverage said the soldier slipped out of the compound before dawn, sentries will be looking for insurgents trying to get in not their own getting out. No one would imagine if they did happen to see him that he had murder in mind basically because they don't think about killing civilians so wouldn't imagine that he would.

As an ex serviseman you'll know as well as I do that the troops aren't out there slaughtering innocent civilians and that every innocent casualty is a regretted one.

MA Caver, you need to have more faith in your fellow Americans.
 

billc

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At what point will we know what religion the soldier was? Before everyone goes nuts, keep in mind:

--before the invasion of Iraq a soldier from the 101st airborne rolled a grenade into the tent of his commanding officers...

--Major Hassan at Fort Bliss texas went on a shooting spree killing over 13 (?) and wounded 29 fellow soldiers...

Both of the above were radical muslim soldiers. Is it too big a leap to think that perhaps this guy is one as well?

Then there is this...

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/five_muslim_soldiers_arrested_over_zYTtFXIBnCecWcbGNobUEJ

Although I don't know how the above investigation turned out...

Five individuals were arrested amid a probe into food poisoning at Fort Jackson U.S. military base, Fox News reported on Thursday (EST).

Sources told Fox the five men were detained in December over allegations that they attempted to poison the food supply at the South Carolina base.

They were all part of the base's Arabic translation training program, referred to in the Army as "Lima 09".
"Each of them uses Arabic as his first language," one source told Fox News.
In an earlier report, before the arrests emerged, a military source told Fox News the suspects were Muslims.



CBN News reported that the five arrested men were Islamic and cited a source who said they may have been in contact with five Washington, DC Muslims, who were arrested in December after authorities uncovered their plans to travel to Pakistan to wage jihad against the U.S.

Here is a follow up on the arrests...

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2010/03/no_poison_food_plot_at_fort_ja.html

[FONT=times new roman,times]In fact, the way this story has been played by the army leaves a lot of questions unanswered. It was left to a Congressman, Representative Joe Wilson, to announce the news that the investigation revealed that there was not an effort to poison food," Wilson said. The probe also showed the men had not been disloyal.

So why were 4 of the 5 dismissed from the army? Petty theft, according to Wilson. Sounds reasonable. Except if the investigation into the food poisoning threat is over, why did they seize and are still analyzing the soldiers' laptops?

[/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman,times]Republican Rep. Joe Wilson, who sits on the House Armed Services Committee, said the soldiers' laptops had been seized and were being analyzed. Congressional officials with knowledge of the case said cell phones and Arabic writings had been confiscated as well.[/FONT][FONT=times new roman,times]Wilson said the soldiers were discharged because of unrelated incidents of minor theft.[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman,times]Are you buying this? If there's no question of their disloyalty, why the continuing investigation? Why not wait until all the facts are in to exonerate these guys?[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman,times]Strange indeed.[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman,times]What about those discharges?[/FONT]

no one was charged but 4 of the 5 were discharged, and there were some holes in the explanation of what actually happened...

 
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oftheherd1

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Your response is exactly what I imagine the vast majority the military and the ex military would be, thank you. Everyone deplores what this soldier has done, no one condones it, your President shouldn't grovel, he's said he was appalled and saddened, as we all are, that's sufficient. The Afghan President, in fact no one from the Afghan government ever apologises when Afghan police or soldiers go on the rampage and kill our troops which has happened several times now both to the British, American and other countries troops.
The BBC coverage said the soldier slipped out of the compound before dawn, sentries will be looking for insurgents trying to get in not their own getting out. No one would imagine if they did happen to see him that he had murder in mind basically because they don't think about killing civilians so wouldn't imagine that he would.

As an ex serviseman you'll know as well as I do that the troops aren't out there slaughtering innocent civilians and that every innocent casualty is a regretted one.

MA Caver, you need to have more faith in your fellow Americans.

All true. Thanks for understanding.

MA Caver, I understand your not liking what happened. I don't like what happened either. But I certainly don't blame all the military. Nor do I blame the whole US civilian population. You do realize our military comes from the civilian population, right? None are born soldiers. They grow up in civilian communities and take values, good or bad, from that upbringing. That means some aren't really good people when they join the military. Others aren't so bad, but they don't have the self worth or moral upbringing that most of their collegues do, so they can't fight things that hurt their souls; they break down in some way. The vast majority are good, and have an upbringing that allows them to cope better, either inately, or by seeking support from their comrades. They still like our support.

I would like to think you know all that, and were just over-frustrated that such a thing had happened, and over-venting.
 

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I think this incident is much more an indictment of the over extension of the military as it is of the military itself. It has been reported here that he was a family man who had already serverd 3 tours in Iraq prior to this deployment in Afghanistan. That will take a serious toll on anybody. I much more view this as a soldier snapped, than anything else.
 

Tez3

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American tours of duty out there seem far longer than ours, our troops do six months with a weeks 'decompression' in Cyprus before coming home, I believe the American troops do over a year which is a long time to be in a war zone. The BBC reported that the soldier, thought to be a staff sgt, has a wife and three children, the whole thing sounds more and more tragic. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17343437
 

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Sorry but that line of reasoning is crap. Absolute crap. Yes this was a lot of deployments. Yes the strain might have caused him to break down. But when a guy breaking down storms his own gate and kills sixteen civilians, the blame is still on him. Throw his *** in Geneva. This is a war crime.

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At what point will we know what religion the soldier was? Before everyone goes nuts, keep in mind:

--before the invasion of Iraq a soldier from the 101st airborne rolled a grenade into the tent of his commanding officers...

--Major Hassan at Fort Bliss texas went on a shooting spree killing over 13 (?) and wounded 29 fellow soldiers...

Both of the above were radical muslim soldiers. Is it too big a leap to think that perhaps this guy is one as well?

Then there is this...

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/five_muslim_soldiers_arrested_over_zYTtFXIBnCecWcbGNobUEJ

Although I don't know how the above investigation turned out...



Here is a follow up on the arrests...

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2010/03/no_poison_food_plot_at_fort_ja.html



no one was charged but 4 of the 5 were discharged, and there were some holes in the explanation of what actually happened...


Yes. It is indeed too big of a leap to assume that the killing of 16 afghani civilians by an army staff sergeant. Based on the demographics involved I can almost guarantee the guy was white, and that he believes he is Christian.

If if was motivated by the same Muslim feelings as Hassan, he would have shot up Americans.

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oftheherd1

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Sorry but that line of reasoning is crap. Absolute crap. Yes this was a lot of deployments. Yes the strain might have caused him to break down. But when a guy breaking down storms his own gate and kills sixteen civilians, the blame is still on him. Throw his *** in Geneva. This is a war crime.

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If he is or was not legally insane, he will probably get more from a military court (granted, not always). Regardless, that is where the offense belongs. I think the Geneva court prefers to only handle offenses not being handled by the country where jurisdiction belongs.
 

Tez3

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Sorry but that line of reasoning is crap. Absolute crap. Yes this was a lot of deployments. Yes the strain might have caused him to break down. But when a guy breaking down storms his own gate and kills sixteen civilians, the blame is still on him. Throw his *** in Geneva. This is a war crime.

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We don't know what it is yet, we were commenting on what the press were speculating. We don't know why he went ape yet.
 

elder999

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:Seen here

The Army staff sergeant who allegedly went on a rampage and killed 16 Afghans as they slept in their homes had a traumatic brain injury at one point and had problems at home after his last deployment, officials told ABC News.

But the soldier, who is based at Fort Lewis in Washington, was considered fit for combat duty and deployed to Afghanistan in December, officials said.
Details about the staff sergeant, who has not been identified, emerged as the Taliban vowed revenge against "sick-minded American savages" after the mass killing.
 

Josh Oakley

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I wouldn't say that was the only reason, but very likely a factor.

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