AP Photo Of Marine's Death Upsetting to High Command

[MA-Caver]

I don't know about the rest of you but I'll applaud not condemn the AP's decision to post the photos of young U.S. soldiers dying in combat.
War is war and the brutal reality of it must be brought home to those who are not IN the thick of it. But apparently the U.S. Military is opposed to showing the horrors of the war in Afghanistan so most likely we won't protest it too much.
Basically a lie about what is REALLY going on over there.

Gates: AP decision 'appalling'


Defense Secretary Robert Gates is objecting “in the strongest terms” to an Associated Press decision to transmit a photograph showing a mortally wounded 21-year-old Marine in his final moments of life, calling the decision “appalling” and a breach of “common decency.”
The AP reported that the Marine’s father had asked – in an interview and in a follow-up phone call — that the image, taken by an embedded photographer, not be published.
The AP reported in a story that it decided to make the image public anyway because it “conveys the grimness of war and the sacrifice of young men and women fighting it.”
The photo shows Lance Cpl. Joshua M. Bernard of New Portland, Maine, who was struck by a rocket-propelled grenade in a Taliban ambush Aug. 14 in Helmand province of southern Afghanistan, according to The AP.
Gates wrote to Thomas Curley, AP’s president and chief executive officer. “Out of respect for his family’s wishes, I ask you in the strongest of terms to reconsider your decision. I do not make this request lightly. In one of my first public statements as Secretary of Defense, I stated that the media should not be treated as the enemy, and made it a point to thank journalists for revealing problems that need to be fixed – as was the case with Walter Reed."
“I cannot imagine the pain and suffering Lance Corporal Bernard’s death has caused his family. Why your organization would purposefully defy the family’s wishes knowing full well that it will lead to yet more anguish is beyond me. Your lack of compassion and common sense in choosing to put this image of their maimed and stricken child on the front page of multiple American newspapers is appalling. The issue here is not law, policy or constitutional right – but judgment and common decency.”
rest of story: http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20090904/pl_politico/26759

Another series of photos of yet another marine who died over there.

Lance Cpl. Joshua M. Bernard

Fri Sep 4, 12:02 AM ET

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In this photo taken Friday Aug. 14, 2009, U.S. Marine Lance Cpl. Joshua Bernard of Golf Company, 2nd Battalion, 3rd Marines, patrols on point through the bazaar in the village of Dahaneh in the Helmand Province of Afghanistan. Less than an hour later Bernard's squad was ambushed by Taliban fighters waiting in a pomegranate grove. Bernard was hit with a rocket propelled grenade and later died of his wounds.
(AP Photo/Julie Jacobson)

Sat Aug 29, 1:07 PM ET

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FILE - In this Aug. 27, 2009, file photo U.S. Marine Corps Gen. Lawrence Nicholson, left, and 2nd MEB Sgt. Major Hooph pay their respects to Lance Cpl. Joshua Bernard during a memorial service at a forward operating base with Golf Company, 2nd Battalion, 3rd Regiment, 2nd MEB, 3rd MEF, in Now Zad in the Helmand Province of Afghanistan. Marines on the front lines across southern Afghanistan, who also fought in Iraq, told The Associated Press in late August 2009, that the enemy in Afghanistan is a smaller, smarter force, not as religiously fanatic as its Iraqi counterparts, that tends to spread out, and use anonymous attacks, like hiding in fields or planting IEDs on roads.
(AP Photo/Julie Jacobson/File)

As upsetting as the photos may be they're important because they tell the TRUTH of what's happening. I'm against the war for the reason that it is not doing US any good. Fighting to help another country gain the so called benefits of democracy which if you ask any one of them they probably didn't want anyway to begin with is way off left field from the supposed hunting of Terrorists that attacked the U.S. 8 years ago.
The whole of Afghan is basically Tribal governments not one big central governing body/head ... just a bunch of groups of people living here and there eeking out a living best as they can in one of the harshest lands on the planet. Just like they've BEEN doing for thousands of years.
Oh sure some of their societal beliefs are appalling to us more *ahem* civilized people (especially how they treat women) but it's how THEY'RE living and it's how THEY are doing it THEIR way for (and I repeat) thousands of years! Who the hell are we to show up and say "Hey... you're doing it all wrong!"

Either way, just as in Vietnam photos of dead and dying soldiers needed to be shown so that no-one political can sugar-coat the whole thing and say... "we're doing well and making progress, your sons and daughters are doing just fine over there. It's going to take a little longer than we thought but our goals are going to be reached soon and we'll send your sons and daughters home."

Show us what's really going on and allow for that freedom of the press and freedom of information and freedom of speech if we don't like what we see and hear/read.
We're still a democracy aren't we??

 

[CoryKS]

As upsetting as the photos may be they're important because they tell the TRUTH of what's happening.

There are ways of telling the TRUTH of what's happening without making the Marine's parents endure the additional heartbreak of opening the paper to see a picture of their child dying. Anyone who thinks that forwarding their agenda trumps the common decency owed the Bernard family is a heartless bastard.

 

[arnisador]

The disturbing image may be found here:
http://www.tampabay.com/incoming/article1033549.ece

I have mixed feelings. If this is the only photo available to make the point about the reality of the war, the AP has both the right and the responsibility to publish it; but I have to believe that someone's parents would have endorsed the use of such a photo, and using that one, if possible, would have been much preferable.

This is America's Army fighting a war on America's behalf. The press is doing the right thing in making sure America understands the cost.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

...but I have to believe that someone's parents would have endorsed the use of such a photo, and using that one, if possible, would have been much preferable.

I'm not sure I understand your statement. Are you saying that you believe the Marine's parents *did* approve the photo being published, or that you think they ought to have?

I can say that if someone from the media came to me and said "Your son is dead. We have a photo of his dying moments we'd like to splash over newspapers world-wide and the internet to show the futility and general badness that is war," my reply would not be printable, but it would be violent.

As many have pointed out, the news media no longer serves the purpose of a 4th branch of government; they are for-profit organizations that publish news and photos that they believe will earn their shareholders the most profit. I have zero interest in providing them with fodder in the form of a loved one's tragic death. I will be happy to play West Virginia show-and-tell with them, which is where they show me their teeth and I tell them how many they get to take home in their pocket.

 

[CoryKS]

I'm not sure I understand your statement. Are you saying that you believe the Marine's parents *did* approve the photo being published, or that you think they ought to have?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090904/ap_on_re_us/afghan_death_ap_photo

While the story was being written, an AP reporter visited the home of John and Sharon Bernard to learn more about their son. The couple was shown Jacobson's pictures, and requested that they not be used. In a later fact-checking phone call, John Bernard asked in stronger terms that the photos not be used, Daniszewski said.

Whoever is responsible for running this picture can DIAF for all I care.

 

[arnisador]

I'm not sure I understand your statement. Are you saying that you believe the Marine's parents *did* approve the photo being published, or that you think they ought to have?

No, I said neither. I said that I believe, on statistical grounds, that there exists a serviceman killed in action whose parents would approve of such a photo.

I can say that if someone from the media came to me and said "Your son is dead. We have a photo of his dying moments we'd like to splash over newspapers world-wide and the internet to show the futility and general badness that is war," my reply would not be printable, but it would be violent.

I'm impressed by your endorsement of violence in response to questions being asked of you. You're a tough man, and that comes through even across the Internet. Clearly, though, there are parents who have lost children in the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts who agree with the sentiments about the futility of war--one stalked Pres. Bush for months.

As many have pointed out, the news media no longer serves the purpose of a 4th branch of government; they are for-profit organizations that publish news and photos that they believe will earn their shareholders the most profit.

But I read here constantly that the three actual branches of govt. are at least as crooked as you claim this one is. Would you prefer state-controlled media, no media, or whatever the web provides?

I will be happy to play West Virginia show-and-tell with them, which is where they show me their teeth and I tell them how many they get to take home in their pocket.

Is this further proof that your feelings on the matter are deep, hence correct? Because otherwise it seems downright childish.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

No, I said neither. I said that I believe, on statistical grounds, that there exists a serviceman killed in action whose parents would approve of such a photo.

OK, I understand now. Sorry, I did not catch your meaning previously. Yes, I'm sure you're right.

I'm impressed by your endorsement of violence in response to questions being asked of you. You're a tough man, and that comes through even across the Internet. Clearly, though, there are parents who have lost children in the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts who agree with the sentiments about the futility of war--one stalked Pres. Bush for months.

I'm not tough, I'm only willing.

But I read here constantly that the three actual branches of govt. are at least as crooked as you claim this one is. Would you prefer state-controlled media, no media, or whatever the web provides?

I'll take what we've got and try to glean some truth out of the baskets of horse-hockey they shovel at us, but that doesn't mean I endorse them - or like them.

Is this further proof that your feelings on the matter are deep, hence correct? Because otherwise it seems downright childish.

We can go with childish here. Knee-jerk reaction to media buzzards. I'm sure they're all really nice people deep down inside.

 

[arnisador]

The media is crumbling under financial pressures, and it is an issue--I agree. The Watergate reporting was a high point; things like that still happen on a smaller scale, but the watchdog role is less and less profitable. To my mind, though, this picture is an attempt to tell the whole and true story. That comes at a cost to the family and friends of this young man. It's an issue I have mixed feelings on, as I said, but on balance I think that shying away from showing blood when covering a long-term war is an irresponsible thing to do.

 

[Makalakumu]

Publish all of the gruesome photos and names of soldiers and civilian casualties. We all need to feel the pain of this war or it will never end.

 

[MA-Caver]

So apparently these photos taken of Vietnam wounded were printed with permission from the respective families? Or not? Or perhaps the soldiers were not identified in the photos so they were printed without permission?
What about photos of holocaust victims that were released in the news after WWII? Were anyone asked if it were okay?

I see the protest against publication is a way to curb anti-war sentiments. Granted if the parents said DO NOT then AP still had the choice to do it and face condemnation but it still does not detract from the fact that this war is becoming increasingly unpopular and the powers that be that still WANT to fight this war don't want another series of Anti-Vietnam War protests cropping up.

Maybe I'm wrong about the motives for banning these photos... I don't know. What I do know is what I'm feeling, as an American citizen.
I support the troops yes, yesterday I worked briefly with an Army private (on leave) for something that my work was doing, he was there just helping out and I took the time to thank him for serving our country.
I'm not anti-war... I'm against the purpose or reason for being IN the war.

 

[CoryKS]

I'm not anti-war... I'm against the purpose or reason for being IN the war.

Then find your own dead relative to parade across the front page. Don't ask someone else to do it, particularly when you haven't even considered whether they agree with your sentiment. Have you considered whether you're using this Marine to advance a cause he may not agree with?

 

[MA-Caver]

My family has not had the misfortune of having someone die or even be wounded in the war. Worse that we've experienced in the last two major conflicts was a cousin of mine returned from Vietnam haunted and shattered from the horrors that he has witnessed.
Being a U.S. soldier every one of them (whatever branch) is a part of our country and a part of us. Fighting and dying for those of us who stay safe from the war(s) here at home, I'd rather there wouldn't be any wounded or dead soldiers TO photograph!

 

[Bill Mattocks]

It is called 'waving the bloody shirt' and it has been around a long time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waving_the_bloody_shirt

A military person is, in the real sense, a pawn. On the battlefield, that is understood. In the media? That's a role I certainly did not enlist for, nor did my brothers-in-arms. If we wish to make an anti-war statement, we'll make it. Otherwise, the media may presume we are not their pawns to be used to send 'messages' to the masses.

In our last major conflict, the media and liberals were openly hostile to the military. In these wars, the media and liberals have adopted a more subtle stance of 'support the troops, but end the war'. This is, in my opinion, based on their understanding that the spirit of the times will not support their obsessive hatred of the military - not publicly, in any case.

However, it is my observation and belief that the media has never stopped hating the military, nor have liberals in general. If one wishes to argue against the wars, by all means do so. Demonstrate and parade and wave signs and carry on. I would suggest that waving the bloody shirt of my dead brothers is not a way to engender my respect, my support, or anything other than my undying animosity. If the media is 'trying to send a message,' they're sending the wrong one - at least to me. It doesn't piss me off at the futility of war - it pisses me off at the ugliness of the media. And I am far from alone.

 

[Tez3]

I think you have to take a step back for a moment and consider this carefully without that kneejerk reaction that the photos bring.
It's very easy for the govenments and the population to say that the armed forces know what to expect, that it's their job and they should just get on with the job in hand that their country has asked them to do. The armed forces of all countries I know will do what ever is asked of them, they will do it bravely and selflessly and to great cost to themselves and their comrades. The question though is before asking them to risk their lives we should know what it is we are asking them to do. The troops have the right to know that we understand what it is we are asking of them.

We can't hide from photos like this and we can't hide away from the facts of what is happening out there. To do so dishonours the people who are making the sacrifices we have asked of them. This is regardless of whether you think it's right to be out there or not and regardless of whether you are anti war or not.

I grieve for the parents but their son is also America's son, he was asked by his people to go fight in a war, he went and now the people of America deserve to know what he went through and of the sacrifice he made. The photograph doesn't demean him, it shouts 'look this man is a hero, honour him'. People don't die quickly and cleanly in war and before you send your army off to fight you have to know this, it's easy to send an army off if it's not you paying the price. I've read many people saying that we have to expect deaths in war and that these deaths are acceptable to make the gains we need to. Thats a harsh thing to say but in wars this sadly is true but if the service people are giving their lives we too must give something, our understanding and our support.

Like many in the UK I sat glued to my television with tears streaming down my face and prayers on my lips as we watched the footage coming from Bluff Cove in the Falkands when the troops ships were blown up. The Navy helicopter pilots including Prince Andrew struggling to get close enough to rescure men off the burning ships, we watched while the Welsh Guards took their dead and dying on stretchers ashore, we saw dreadfully injured soldiers staggering out of the water, it was like a hell on earth, literally with the flames and smoke. Yet we had to watch, we had to understand what it was like for them, we'd sent them there, we owed it to them to understand, to know what they were doing. Should we have turned away because it was bloody and uncomfortable viewing?

The photographs the war reporters took in Vietnam are powerful and gut wrenching, I remember seeing them at the time and they are unforgettable as they should be, we can't gloss over the horror of war just because we find it upsetting when we read the paper in our sittingrooms or watch on our televisions.We can't pretend it's not happening just because we find it 'upsetting'.
Don't blame the media, this happens whether they photograph and print it or not.
We have to remember, we did this, we are responsible for this, live with it or stop it.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

We can't hide from photos like this and we can't hide away from the facts of what is happening out there. To do so dishonours the people who are making the sacrifices we have asked of them. This is regardless of whether you think it's right to be out there or not and regardless of whether you are anti war or not.

Not on our backs. The 'we' you speak of is society. The 'we' I speak of is my fellow soldiers. Your 'we' hasn't the right (morally) to claim to speak for mine, nor to use photos of our pain and suffering to remind yourselves of anything at all.

Your 'we' dishonors mine by ignoring our wishes. 'We' are not your tool for social justice. Stop using us as one.

 

[Tez3]

Not on our backs. The 'we' you speak of is society. The 'we' I speak of is my fellow soldiers. Your 'we' hasn't the right (morally) to claim to speak for mine, nor to use photos of our pain and suffering to remind yourselves of anything at all.

Your 'we' dishonors mine by ignoring our wishes. 'We' are not your tool for social justice. Stop using us as one.

Boy. when you miss a point you really miss it by miles don't you.

 

[Tez3]

Bill I haven't the foggiest idea what you were on about with 'social justice' etc but my premise and belief is..

That the civilian population as well as it's government should understand what they are asking of its army when they send it off to war.

That the civilian population as well as its government should understand the sacrifices it's soldiers make for them.

That the civilian population and its government shouldn't avert its eyes from photographs and articles showing the soldiers who have been injured or killed just because the said civilians and government find it upsets their sensibilities.

The civilians and their government are responsible for those soldiers and what happens to them in the war they have sent them to take part in. They can't wash their hands of the soldiers just because it upsets them to see them injured.

Social justice? No, justice for soldiers.

 

[Archangel M]

I just dont understand the "show them a soldier dying and we will end this war" mentality. ALL wars result in dead soldiers.

Maybe if we show some dead cops we will end crime.....

 

[Cryozombie]

Here is the way I see it, bear in mind this is opinion, and your milage will vary.

If I were fighting in the war, any war... WWII, 'Nam, the Gulf, the War against the Machines, whatever... without having been drafted, i.e., Volluntarily enlisted:

If I were killed, and there were Photos of the event... and the media wished to use them to say "Look what is happening, its wrong, get our boys out/home"... *I* (not really cuz I mean, I'd be dead, but take my meaning) would be a little upset that my death was used in such a way, after all I made the choice and the sacrifice.

If the media wanted to use it, however, to send a message about the reality of war WITHOUT the negative connotation of "Look how wrong we are"... that is, being a message of "War is Brutal, Often wrong, But our Brave Men and Women endure it to keep people safe and free" (and assuming thats the case, and its not propaganda) I'd be ok with it being shown.

I guess, what I am saying, is it all comes down to intent, AFAIC.

 

[Tez3]

I just dont understand the "show them a soldier dying and we will end this war" mentality. ALL wars result in dead soldiers.

Maybe if we show some dead cops we will end crime.....

I'm not saying that in the least, I'm saying that society, if you want to use that word, and certainly governments should understand that when they send an army to war soldiers will be killed and wounded.
Too many people and certainly too many politicians are anxious to send troops off to war without understanding their responsiblities towards those soldiers.
Take the British army, it goes off to war quite happily on the say so of our government, after all thats it's job but our government minister sent them into Afghanistan saying that they will be in and out without firing a shot. yes I'm afraid he really did. Then of course the fighting started, we have injured soldiers who received compensation for their injuries and the government is taking them to court to get some of the compensation back. I know the photo is of an American soldier but someone needs to shove that photo or a similiar one under the noses of our politicians and make them really look at the cost of the war they started.
I'm not saying all wars are wrong though I do think this one is what I'm sayng is that people need to look and see what price the troops are paying.
If that photograph makes people understand what soldiers do for their country and it generates respect and thought for those soldiers then it's right it should be shown.