Advice for hard punching with minimal padding, and still avoid ripping knuckle skin?

[Flying Crane]

Let's recap, the thread title is "

Advice for hard punching with minimal padding, and still avoid ripping knuckle skin?​

That's an injury that can be easily avoided with tape, wraps, and when necessary gloves.

You can do it that way.
You can also do it without tape, wraps, and gloves. It’s just a different approach and likely has different goals in mind. So yes, it is different.

 

[Buka]

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[isshinryuronin]

Some feedback on the original issue i had

Not nearly as fun as the current issues.

did some uppercuts at angle, that i think was the culprit, vill avoid them.

I agree this is a likely suspect. A boxing style uppercut usually has an arcing motion, so the knuckles hit on an oblique angle rather than straight on (as there is no chin or ribcage on the bag to allow this (being cylindrical), causing a scraping contact. My karate uppercut is straight, but due to the shape of the bag is subject to the same problem, especially bare handed on canvas. When working a lot on various angles on the heavy bag I did slip on my Everlast leather bag gloves.

P.S. I took them off for the makiwara. Bleeding is macho as someone here hinted at.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Please sir, what is leaning on the bag?

I’ve seen it a lot. When people are leaning in on the bag and hitting it on the backswing. That’s not letting the bag do its job but it depends on weight and how the bag is affixed to some extent. People love to see the bag move, but it’s better if it doesn’t.

 

[Sammy Naur]

You can do it that way.
You can also do it without tape, wraps, and gloves. It’s just a different approach and likely has different goals in mind. So yes, it is different.

Yes, different in that doing it without tape, wraps, gloves, or other equipment is always a bad idea.

 

[Sammy Naur]

About the bolded, italic part. Serious question here: maybe I missed it, but please show me where anybody in this thread made such a claim. Point to the specific post and specific language.

Once again, those claims are all over the thread, and it's not my job to point them out.

I'm sure anybody actually reading this stuff noticed the "bolded italic" part.

Gross. Would have been kinder to give him a new, clean, sanitary set of wraps. Passing along your wraps? That’s like gifting someone your dirty underwear.

You know it's possible to wash wraps, gloves, underwear, gis, and so on.

You are messing with me.

 

[Sammy Naur]

…um…

What.

We're having a discussion about hand injuries, in striking arts.

I for one, was trying to be a little serious about it, but sure enough a casual glance through the entire thread will show you, as I just pointed out, a lot of people who claim wraps/tape/gloves are not necessary, they've been doing it for 500 years, etc.

 

[Sammy Naur]

Buka, is there something you're not telling us?

I've surpassed Buka? Thanks for the promotion.

What I meant here is that with respect to @Buka and @isshinryuronin, your training is documented all over MartialTalk. And that's your business.

But when it comes to this particular discussion about striking hands, I'm not convinced you know what you're talking about, especially given the cavalier attitudes about what are considered essential combat striking sport tools.

 

[Sammy Naur]

Honest bit of friendly advice here: if you often find that people respond to you in this way, it might have something to do with how you present yourself.

Once again, stop patronizing me.

I don't give a damn about how you or others here are responding to me. IF anything, you're giving away your lack of experience. And I also don't care if you want to claim you've got 500 years of experience hitting a wooden post.

Honest question, have you ever wrapped your hand in boxing wraps? I've got enough experience with this to know that people who can't wrap their own hands, or never had theirs wrapped by a trained professional, are full of it.

 

[Sammy Naur]

Who, ever on this thread, said or implied it's a replacement? Your attitude is seemingly blinding you from being coherent.

That's ironic coming from you. Your typical post is paragraphs and paragraphs of self-absorbed, self-aggrandizing subject matter.

And yet, something as simple as the importance of wrapping hands is too good for you.

And the whole "Who, ever on this thread, said" line is getting old. Multiple people have said it, and I'm a pretty swell reader. So enough with the "nobody said that" nonsense. And definitely stop with the claim that I'm the incoherent one here.

Walk into any boxing gym (British, Thai, Chinese, Australian, etc) and tell them you're not going to wrap your hands because you hit hard things all your life.

 

[Sammy Naur]

It was very ridiculous for me to say that jumping rope is useless to boxing as my grandkids can do one but not the other. But I was merely applying the same logic as you did:

You are the joke here.

No, you didn't apply my logic. My logic has been straightforward this entire thread, arguing against some of the nonsense being peddled by the other people who don't appear to have any actual full contact experience when it comes to striking.

Your straw man argument about jumping rope was ridiculous.

"ridiculous for me to say that jumping rope is useless to boxing as my grandkids can do one but not the other."

That statement is literally absurd. Not only does jump rope have nothing to do with this thread topic, you had to bring your grandkids into the discussion.

Just as a reminder, the thread title is:

"

Advice for hard punching with minimal padding, and still avoid ripping knuckle skin?"​

 

[Sammy Naur]

Well I have torn all the skin off my knuckles when I was younger by hitting bags, both with and without gloves. Despite what you might think, ive done and received my fair share of violence, both inside and outside a gym. I have broken most of my fingers at least once and both hands, I’ve been stabbed twice, beaten unconscious with both a cane and a bat, shot at in several instances, etc etc. it means nothing other than that I lacked any sense of self preservation. When I was doing full contact I used 4 ounce gloves, a mouth guard and a cup, that’s it. When I hit a bag I use bag gloves (no wraps) but I sometimes stick moleskin between knuckles and tape it in place for any heavy contact. I work in surgery the last 20 years so I cannot afford to have broken skin ( or broken hands ) anymore. I don’t do much full speed sparring anymore because I’ve had several TBI injuries that put me at risk for more CTE. Yeah I’m older, but I still train several times a week. I’m not a tough guy, but ive known several, which is how i know I’m not one. I’m not an authority on anything at all. I think it’s easy to think we know the one way to do things, but there really are some unicorns out there, even if you haven’t personally met one. I don’t doubt that wraps and gloves are a good advice to beginners or ring boxers. I don’t doubt that you have the experience to have your opinions be legitimately true. I do doubt that you are THE authority on all things martial. Look at the knuckles on old karatekas, no doubt you can SEE the conditioning. I don’t know how long you have been hitting people or objects, but you are talking down and insulting people that have been doing just that for decades. Consider the possibility that they may know something you don’t. I’m not talking about myself here, I’m nobody, but several of these guys have forgotten more about martial arts than I will ever learn. Just sayin.

That's all well and good, but you are also peddling the same "conditioning" trope.

"I don’t doubt that wraps and gloves are a good advice to beginners or ring boxers.".

No, this is good advice to anyone who ever trains any striking martial arts. And the fact that you posted that statement just leads me to believe you, like @isshinryuronin and others, don't really have any experience with this.

I'm going to keep pushing this point because it's close to my heart, but there are tried and true reasons why combat sports people wrap, tape, and glove up. And then take care of themselves afterwards (which is out of scope for this silly thread).

 

[Sammy Naur]

I fully agree. Wrapping for boxing makes sense. What doesn't make sense is applying the same paradigm to a much different activity - traditional Okinawan self-defense karate vs the sport of boxing. To contrast them:

No. There is no such thing as "traditional Okinawan self defense karate" when it comes to physical combat. That is "Karate Kid" movie stuff.

And you just made the "vs. sport" and "self defense vs. sport" comparison again.

Let's be clear: "traditional Okinawan self defense karate" is a glamour, because if you can't use that in a combat striking sport arena, it's just a fantasy.

Now, there are some examples of people out there who do effectively combine traditional Okinawan karate with modern combat sports, but I guarantee you, they are not hitting makiwara boards, or hitting heavy bags without protection.

 

[Sammy Naur]

1. Boxing - designed for multiple rounds involving dozens (100+) of fist contacts during an encounter. Karate - designed for completing an encounter with less than 10 such contacts, preferably 4 or 5.

When was the last time you actually watched a boxing match, compared to a karate match?

Because there are literally no examples of what you just described with respect to karate.

"completing an encounter", sorry, that's not how the real world works.

2. Boxing - all strikes performed with the hands.
Karate - strikes also done with elbows, knees, feet, forearms and also reliance on grabs and joint locks.

This is another example of you illustrating your lack of experience with boxing. "All strikes performed with the hands".

Once again, when was the last time you actually watched a boxing match.

3. Boxing - encounters are pre-planned, allowing for wrapping, putting on cups, etc.
Karate - designed for unforeseen spontaneous combat, precluding the ability to don protective equipment.

Boxing encounters are "pre-planned"? And Karate is, your words, "designed for"...

And yet, you can provide evidence that Karate has proven effective in "unforeseen spontaneous combat"?

There are other differences as well, but these three illustrate how the use of hands differs between the two activities. This obviously results in different training requirements and methods.

As in the case of makiwara benefits, it's wise to understand the thing one is critiquing and not view it thru the restricted biased lens of just your own art.

No, everything you just said is wrong. There are no differences, and your examples are all nonsense.

Hitting a makiwara is antiquated and has no value to the modern martial artist. And the fact that you insist on trying to differentiate it with modern boxing says a lot.

Honest suggestion, stop trying to be "wise" when chatting with people who have real experience in combat sports.

"Biased lens", is basically a confession. "Just your own art", that's you. Sorry, I was never tied down or spent my life devoted to one.

 

[Fungus]

Not nearly as fun as the current issues.

To join this more recent issue, my impression about the difference in need for wrapping HANDS and WRISTS based on my admittdetly limited experience (just a few years) is this:

1. If you have a sport were boxing gloves are used, then I do see a larger need to wrapping due to its IMO at least, impossible for form a proper tensed stable fist with stable wrists inside a glove. I personally dont like that feeling. So in order to not hurt hurself when usign such gloves and striking HARD, I think some wrapping might possibly make sense.

2. withtout glove or with think gloves where you can form a proper wrist you get more natural stability, and tight wrapping of hands and wrists I find (I tried it) seems to seriousy contrains and inhibit by wrist mobility, which is annoying, but good in the sense that it "locks" the wrist into a safter position. But then you learn to rely on this support.

So i might see that suggesting that BOXERS should not wrap their hands may not be the best advice, but this is not necessariyl the same as to say that those doing contact sports without boxing gloves, should wrap their hands?

To tape KNUCKLES or to have thing gloves, for me has nothing todo with hand or wrist support, it's simplyto save SKIN.

 

[Same Trick]

Didn’t Iron.Mike fracture his hand in a street fight, and even more surprisingly the other guy wasn’t KO’ed ?

 

[Buka]

Once again, stop patronizing me.

I don't give a damn about how you or others here are responding to me. IF anything, you're giving away your lack of experience. And I also don't care if you want to claim you've got 500 years of experience hitting a wooden post.

Honest question, have you ever wrapped your hand in boxing wraps? I've got enough experience with this to know that people who can't wrap their own hands, or never had theirs wrapped by a trained professional, are full of it.

Dude, please. C’mon, you can do better than that.

Wrapping your own hands is a royal pain in the ash. Whether you’re using actual boxing wraps or underwrap and white hockey tape, it doesn’t matter. Before a fight you utilize what’s available to you.

So, okay, if you’re wrapping your own hands, or your trainer/cornerman wrapped them for you, where is the most likely place you have to snip your tape/wraps with bandage scissors (trauma shears or utility scissors) because they’re too tight and you realize, oh sheet, my hand is going to sleep?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Palm striking concrete? Hitting heavy bags without any protection?

And now boxing gloves actually cause injuries?

I'm noticing a pattern here of bad advice regarding striking. I get that the karate, kung fu etc crowd loves to crow about this sort of thing, but it's make believe.

Not crowing about anything, not bragging, not giving advice, just stating my experience. Don’t like it, don’t do it. As a matter of fact don’t do the palm strike on trees and walls without a teacher

As for bare fist and a heavy bag, when i started back in 1972 and into the 90s (and even today for that matter) the idea was, and is, in an actual fights, you don’t stop and put on gloves before it starts. We don’t use gloves training with the mook jong in Wing Chun, and they didn’t in JKD either on the mook.

Hurt with boxing gloves, yup, mostly my wrist, because training without them for years and then trying a pair, the angle of your wrist at which you hit the bag is off because your point of impact has changed by the thickness of the glove. Tried to correct it, still wasn’t right, so i went to MMA fingerless gloves

Now i suppose i could wrap my wrist, oh wait, i tried that, but it came back to this. At no point, in a real out of the ring fight, will i have time to wrap my wrists, put on gloves and then start the fight. But if that is what you do and how you train, awesome, keep it up. I have nothing against it, it is just not for me and not how I train

NOTE: now before it starts, yes, i have had multiple fights, had a job that required it, and at no point did i ever punch or kick anyone, that could get you sued. Did joint lock, restrain, wrestle, sweep/trip and take folks down. And yes, i have sparred with and without gloves. And you are much more likely to get hurt without, or at least the person getting hit is, I don’t recommend not wearing some type of glove for sparring. But i prefer sparring with MMA fingerless gloves because you can grab. I simply cannot get the hang of boxing gloves.

 

[Flying Crane]

Yes, different in that doing it without tape, wraps, gloves, or other equipment is always a bad idea.

Well no, it isn’t.

 

[Flying Crane]

You are messing with me.

You do a good job of painting a target on yourself.