Advancing the Base...

[RayK]

Hello, new to this forum. I have a couple of questions to ask... 1st - For those of us doing Kenpo, how do you advance your base techniques. In other words, a black belt wouldn't do Delayed Sword the same way it is written out for the white belt, right? They're used as our Base and to any given base we have the formulation process. So I'd like to hear some ideas, if you don't mind sharing your creativity....
2nd - Adding resistance to your Kenpo training... In other words, having a partner that doesn't just stand there like a manneqin while you do dozens of strikes to him. How many do their techniqus and then when they spar they look like kickboxers? I would like to hear some feedback on this subject... It's something I've been looking at for some time now.
Brother John, I especially want some feedback from you buddy...

Ray Kellison

 

[Goldendragon7]

Understand your phases and utilize them. After you have an extremely strong Base.... (Ideally) then advance to the next logical step ..... which is the "what if" phase, much exploration here..... use your Kenpo Tools and you'll spend the next several years here.... sometime down the road you'll realize that all that work and study has brought you to be able to "formulate" whenever needed.

:asian:

 

[Brother John]

I’m very glad to see you here on Martial Talk Ray, I think you’ll enjoy it here! Lord knows I do.

I don’t mind sharing whatever creativity I’ve got, heck… ask the guys around this web-site… it’s getting me to shut up that’s the trick.

Advancing the base: There’s two different ways to look at this I think. First: you can advance the way YOU execute it. This has to do with tailoring and formulation. It’s our own personal flair and expression of Kenpo. This is micro-advancing the base… just as an individual person… it’s temporary and breads some diversity in execution. When I’m working with my students I might do it on a little bit bigger scale. We might work Snapping Limb with a little bit different of an ending or something… but the “by the book” way hasn’t changed… only how we are doing it that day.

The second way to look at it is the macro-view… to change or advance the “By the Book” way. This one is the reason I am enthusiastic about being in the AKKI, they emphasize both views. Some more “traditionalized” Kenpo schools/associations…etc. do use the micro-advancement to great effect! But the base goes unchanged. Nothing wrong with that, I’ve got a TON of respect for them! But in the AKKI Mr. Mills principally along w/our seniors have seen deficiencies in some techniques or better ways to do this or that and have changed the base curriculum, the “by the book” way. This is how Mr. Parker did things, he had ways that he wanted to/and did/ change the base curriculum of American Kenpo and he was still very much underway with the overhauls when he died. Some continued to change, others did not.

Advancing the “macro” base is something that’s up to Mr. Mills and the seniors of our association, who’s guidance and leadership we follow. Advancing the “Micro” base is where the school, teacher and student can do some great work.

I think that the best way is to use the “elongate circles, round of corners” approach. Find out what happens when you try to do things that were in sequence, all at once. For instance when doing Delayed Sword take the inward block and the kick that used to happen in sequence and make them simultaneous. The execution of the kick will have to be altered somewhat, coming along a diagonal plane and aimed at the soft underside of the attackers right knee (like a short Mui Thai kick). I tell my Orange Belts to do it this way as often as they do it the “yellow belt way”. I tell them to imagine that there is a rope tied to your right wrist that goes up to the ceiling to a pulley and back down to the right foot so that when the right hand comes down for the block the right leg comes up for the kick. This kick tends to disturb the attacker along height (disturbing the knee usually does this), width (takes them toward their right… toward your next movement: the R-outward handsword) and depth (their forward momentum gets continued, but diverted to their right…again, toward your right hand). This takes a technique from the base way of three segments/beats of motion and compresses the same amount of effect into only two segments/beats.

This is only one way I’ve been shown to advance the base on Delayed Sword. Creativity and Logic will develop more! When you and I get together we can play around with this and many more.

I agree with what Mr. Conaster said too: take the most probable “what-ifs” and address them from every angle.

Another way to advance the base is grafting. Grafting not only helps you to flow in transitions… but in essence, creates a whole new technique that you didn’t have before and can give you many answers that you hadn’t seen before… and even better, more questions!

I look forward to seeing you on these forums more!!!
Your Brother
John

 

[rmcrobertson]

Ray:

I'd have to say that I agree with the first couple of responses, and not--sorry to say--with what I take to be the spirit of the last one.

In other words, I say leave the techs alone for a while. There's a temptation in kenpo to be clever, to "advance the base," just because an option is possible. I think of it as resembling what happens with other technologies--computer types are always screwing around with computers just to screw around with computers, us literary types are always screwing around with books...

I particularly think it's a bad idea, a terrible idea, for nearly--nearly-- everybody below the level of black belt to be fiddling around with, say, Delayed Sword. What this tech teaches, first and foremost, is to step back and block. Everything else is gravy. I'm afraid that I think that when you teach yellow and orange belts to kick and block at the same time (sorry, B. John), you're teaching them a new way to get hit.

It's like piano, or dance, in this: "creativity," (and there's a misused word) comes out of practicing, practicing, practicing, the basics. Otherwise, it's just fingerpainting--which is why there are so many silly versions of the forms out there. Folks--and teachers-- "experimented" (as though you could experiment before you understood) just to be experimenting.

Again, sorry B. John. But I disagree with what I thought I read.

Thanks.

 

[Jill666]

Well jeez, I can't top Brother John regarding advancing your base... so I'm not gonna try. As I progress though, it's thoroughly enjoyable to play with the what-ifs, and let the flow carry your uke into something truly nasty

Welcome, Ray and don't be shy no-one else here seems to be.

Oh, hey re-reading your question I can add that having an uke resist once the moves are in the muscle memory is very valuable. Speaking as a small woman, my training partner is a large man, and he will resist or pick any opening I leave him. As I will most likely encounter a man his size on the street rather than a rabid 120 lb woman (no comment please, from the peanut gallery) it helps me to see if my skill is street-ready, and to address weaknesses in my defense.

Peace out- Jill

 

[Brother John]

Hi Mr. Robertson

No problem, we've disagreed before. In fact, if I had to pick my favorite person to disagree with... it'd be you. No offense intended, actually... it's a compliment. You don't tend toward ad homonym attacks but rely on logic and remain mature. Rare on many (if not all) forums.

I'd have to say that I agree with the first couple of responses, and not--sorry to say--with what I take to be the spirit of the last one.

Not sure what you take to be the 'spirit' of my response really. Didn't think I was being rude really. Please let me know what you take it to be.

In other words, I say leave the techs alone for a while.

How long is "a while"? Ray has been doing Delayed Sword pretty much the same way for years and is now a 3rd degree black belt. How much longer would "a while" be, and why would this wait benefit him more than finding a usable alteration to do in adition to the base? Please understand, I'm not saying that we, or anyone, should eliminate the "by the book" way of doing Delayed Sword... not at all.

There's a temptation in kenpo to be clever, to "advance the base," just because an option is possible. I think of it as resembling what happens with other technologies--computer types are always screwing around with computers just to screw around with computers

If those computer types hadn't 'screwed around' with computers we wouldn't have the internet and we'd all be pushing and pulling slotted cards in and out of large room sized machines, changing vacuum tubes. Besides, honestly, "Screwing around with" doesn't imply a very good thing does it? Seems to connote that the experimentation isn't being done by someone with much understanding, insight or logic doesn't it? I'm not suggesting that people go about Willie Nilly throwing this out and putting that in w/out reason or good sense. Also: "temptation to be clever", sort of connotes the same thing... except that the person in question now seems to be showing off and "trying" to seem knowledgable or insightful while really shallow. I don't think I need to go much further to let you know how I interpret the "spirit" of your response.

I'm afraid that I think that when you teach yellow and orange belts to kick and block at the same time (sorry, B. John), you're teaching them a new way to get hit.

Perhaps I didn't explain very well, that happens. Perhaps you are not visuallizing it well either. Whatever the case... I didn't create this alteration, I learned it from several different black belts at a seminar, none of them below 5th degree. We were in lines by rank (or course) and everyone was making the technique work well. Eventually I (and I'd assume others) took this (and others) method home and used it in my school, against very spirited/properly aimed/forcefull attacks... and it worked. Also: I've taught it, as I've said, to my Orange Belts... and again, in a very aggressive/spirited technique line, they can each make it work very well. It would help if I wasn't trying to TYPE out a description of something you haven't seen, but instead could DEMONSTRATE it for you. Then we could have a better discussion on practicallity and usefulness.

Delayed Sword. What this tech teaches, first and foremost, is to step back and block. Everything else is gravy.

That is "first and foremost" yes, and I'd imagine that a 3rd degree black belt has mastered "step back and block" years ago. So, is there nothing more for him in the technique? I believe there is MUCH MUCH more and that step back and block is the tip of the iceberg... an important 'tip', but a tip nonetheless. I believe that the base technique "Delayed Sword" does have more lessons, even for a 4th or 5th degree black belt... let alone what can be gained from an alteration thereof.

Folks--and teachers-- "experimented" (as though you could experiment before you understood) just to be experimenting.

As I said, I didn't "experiment" to find this variation on Delayed Sword, other MUCH higher ranking people did, and they DID understand first; a great deal of understanding and insight... and they didn't do it "Just to be experimenting"... not at all. Progress was and is their driving motivator, not just to be different. Different doesn't mean better. Don't you think that high ranking black belts, or even a brown belt for that matter, "Understand" "step back and block" very well?

Again, sorry B. John. But I disagree with what I thought I read.

Again, this sounds very ominous. Please let me know, what did you 'think' you read. It worries me, I hate comming off wrong.

Looking forward to some decent discourse/dialogue on this.
Thanks

Your Brother
John

:asian:

"Too much agreement kills a good chat." Mark Twain

 

[RayK]

Hey thanks everybody for your responses. I am very aware of the 3 phase concept of each technique. And have used them. But, that's not exactly what I was after. I hope that kenpo practitioners out there don't just do the base as it is written all the time as is. I think that once a person tests for the required techniques (the bases) that the student should start to expand that base. Now, if you're promoting students too quickly then that's not a good idea. I think that if a student is testing, they better have the techniques down and in the spontaneous level or they shouldn't be testing. Why give more if they aren't ready? With that said why do the base, the base way all the time. It's the base! Someone used painting as an analogy. A base would be painting by numbers in my opinion. Once you've accomplished painting a certain picture (a base tech.) over and over again until you can do it with your eyes closed, why would you continue painting it exactly the same way. What more can be gained? (We're just talking on a learning capacity, not including movement, timing, resistance, etc.). Now, to pass on the painting so that someone else can learn it's principles and basics is a must. Kenpo is an art. So why would "your" own expression be what's written in the manual. That wasn't Parker's expression. Mr. Mills tells us Mr. Parker never did the technique the way it was written. Why? He was "expressing" his Kenpo in "his" way. Mr. Mills did and does the same thing.
Know has really touched the resistance issue. That to me should be #1 for the art to work for "you". Why is a boxer feared? Because he can express "his" art against someone "fully" resisting. As Bruce Lee used to say, "It's easy to stand back and say "I can do this, and that, but to truly express oneself HONESTLY, now that's hard to do". To make another technique to a "what-if" in my book is not enough. That's a new base to a different question.
What does everyone do, to make their technique work against a resisting partner?

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Hey Ray,

I assume from your two previous posts that you're a fellow AKKI'er , always good to see family on the board, it tends to get lonely.

Something "we" have been working on is the idea of defensive covering and how to deal with it. Technique lines have their benefits, namely giving students the opportunity to work their techs on a actual body. However, since most of us won't be attacked by mannequins it behooves us to explore dynamic situations.

If I were to throw an attack and suddenly the person I just tried to punch or kick went offensive, I would be trying to manuever, cover, and counter in such a fashion as to regain the offensive. Looking at the techs from this stand point, what would you do if you tried to execute Five swords, Triggered devastation, Destructive hammer, etc.. and your opponent suddenly covered up (much the same way a boxer would)? How would you alter your targets or fight through the blocks to maintain your superior battle position (i.e. the offensive)?

Simple tools like B1a, and the like, can be of great use. The timing patterns are an excellent tool. Misdirection is also good, you are a Third so I don't have to tell you about kicks and leg checks. These are just a few of the things that we have been playing with. "Manipulating the gap" (as Mr. M calls it) against a staggering opponent should be easy, but raining down a continuous flow of strikes to destroy your opponents ability to think or function and thereby fight tends to get a little more difficult as they try and manuever back to a superior fighting position. Start slow, have someone throw up an arm to block and work your counter to this position. It may mean that you completely change what you were doing and buckle the leg similiar to Rising Guillotine, or that you simply insert an extra timing pattern or Sparring Tech (B1a) to trap and remove the blockade. When you are done with this, play with the Clinch.

Just my very random thoughts.

 

[Jill666]

Originally posted by RayK
Why is a boxer feared? Because he can express "his" art against someone "fully" resisting. As Bruce Lee used to say, "It's easy to stand back and say "I can do this, and that, but to truly express oneself HONESTLY, now that's hard to do". To make another technique to a "what-if" in my book is not enough. That's a new base to a different question.
What does everyone do, to make their technique work against a resisting partner?

Very nicely put- one of my teachers (my cousin) put the same thought another way- "if you perform the technique perfectly you are a martial arts performer. And you are performing someone else's art. If you counter a move in a fashion that flows from your mind and body, you become an artist". Does that mean throw out all kata/waza? Hell, no. Painters in college paint copies of Van Gogh. This is a step to learning how to use technique to express the vision in their heads, and they create their own art when they have developed the tools to do so.

If my partner resists, and I am feeling his intent, he is telling me what to do. If he pushes me, I can go with the push, turn to my side, and stick my fingers of the opposite hand into his throat. If he chokes me from behind and bends me down, why not go down? If I yield, I can allow his weight to flow over me headfirst into the floor. If that's what he wants to do, that's ok with me. If he pulls me in, I can go in, and in, and in. Oops, was that your chin? How's your knee? I thought you wanted me to come in.

Just because you have resistance you don't always have to meet it head long, and the stronger guy prevails. I'm learning to feel what is going on, and to picture where I want to end up, and that begins to dictate what I do next. Doesn't always work out but I'm having fun. And starting to get away from the stiff, mechanical movements I came in with. Block, punch, kick. Stand like there's a rod up your a$$. Hey, I'm still new, and starting to ramble, hopefully I made some kind of sense.

 

[Kenpomachine]

I completely agree with your post, Jill. It makes loads of sense

 

[Brother John]

Sorry that I left #2 completely alone Ray.
Really I feel that this is a great area for growth in Kenpo. To execute against a person who’s not going to “stoop” at the right point unless you make them and not going to position ANYTHING ‘for’ you. I don’t think you’d even see exact ‘techniques’ per say, but bits O’ vocabulary from w/in different techniques done spontaneously and in accordance w/the ingrained principles in order to adapt with the flowing needs of the moment.

Here’s an idea: Pad up to the hilt, tell the attacker that he must attack with the prescribed attack… full out, w/out warning! Then respond 80% force. We MUST be cautious though, this would be very dangerous, FULL padding would be a must!!! After this is done for a while, give the attacker two or three different options that they can do after the initial attack is carried out. For instance: in Delayed Sword… just a step through punch in the first phase, then in the second they can follow it up with either a grab OR retract the right hand and reinitiate a different right handed punch OR do a Left handed punch. The defender wouldn’t know which of the three options the attacker would choose… but would know the attackers options. Later down the road after this has been worked on for some time we could make it so that the defender didn’t know the attacker’s follow up options. HERES another idea: Tell these fully padded Kenpoists that the attack will either be Delayed Sword, Sword of Destruction or Deflecting Hammer. The defender does not know which will be coming, only that it will either be the right hand, the left hand or the right foot. A later stage of this would include an unknown follow up attack.

VERY VERY interesting subject here Ray. Thanks… now I won’t sleep tonight!
Melissa thanks you too…NOT.

Your Brother
John

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Personally I think you guys are going way off on a tangent in the "what if" phase. The IDEA of the technique is to cancel as many dimensions as possible with the initial move, ie. Height, width, depth, time, thereby nullifying any other potential movements of your attacker. If you can't make your first move work, you probably just need some more practice on a less compliant dummy that will attempt to hit you if your first move is less than completely effective, or maybe that's what you're trying to say.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[Brother John]

Actually what I was talking about is ways to increase the intensity through:
1. Real attack: not 'realistic', but real. That's the reason for "padding to the hilt". Although you could only do this with your "hard-core" students and/or workout buddies... I still think it'd be a good way to go as it would up the intensity and thus adrenaline.
2. Uncertain response: This is the "resistance" that I think Ray was wanting to address. That a person doesn't step through and punch at you just once and leave it at that. It is a VERY good point Clyde that:

The IDEA of the technique is to cancel as many dimensions as possible with the initial move, ie. Height, width, depth, time, thereby nullifying any other potential movements of your attacker.

That's what this form of training I suggested would do... if you don't want to have to face the succesive attacks... nullify the initial one well enough.

Your'e right, we probably are saying the same thing. You are better at putting things "In a nut-shell" than I am.
:asian:
Your Brother
John

 

[Robbo]

Personally I think you guys are going way off on a tangent in the "what if" phase. The IDEA of the technique is to cancel as many dimensions as possible with the initial move, ie. Height, width, depth, time, thereby nullifying any other potential movements of your attacker. If you can't make your first move work, you probably just need some more practice on a less compliant dummy that will attempt to hit you if your first move is less than completely effective, or maybe that's what you're trying to say.

What was that joke about how to tell a if a person studies Kenpo?

They are the people throwing 3 more handstrikes, 2 elbows, 4 kicks in the air after their attacker got knocked out from the first move of the defense.

In this case it seems like we would all be frustrated artists in a street situation if our techniques worked perfectly

Alive of course but very,....... very frustrated.

Which brings me to my addition on the subject of having a uke resist. How do you overcome their resistance?.....hit them and hit them hard like you would someone on the street. Granted you are going to run out of training partners but what is the point if Joe uke just keeps resisting because he can take the 50-80% shot that you are giving him because you are being considerate?

There has to be a understanding of what you are resisting. When someone grabs they are going to resist your manipulation, thats fine, go with the resistance, overpower, whatever you have to do. When you are doing a buckle to a locked out knee or an arm break how do you overcome the resistance of your uke?......you can't or your partner would be quite upset with you. Your uke has to undertand this and be aware that they can't resist in some situations.

I'm not advocating the above, we all have to get up and go to work the next day just trying to examine the problem from a different angle.

What it boils down to is your uke which ironically means dummy has to be very smart in realizing what they can and can not resist. Which in a fluid situation such as Brother John is decribing (putting on pads and going at it) would be very hard to do.

Rob

 

[Kenpodoc]

Originally posted by RayK
Hello, new to this forum. I have a couple of questions to ask... 1st - For those of us doing Kenpo, how do you advance your base techniques. In other words, a black belt wouldn't do Delayed Sword the same way it is written out for the white belt, right? They're used as our Base and to any given base we have the formulation process. So I'd like to hear some ideas, if you don't mind sharing your creativity....
2nd - Adding resistance to your Kenpo training... In other words, having a partner that doesn't just stand there like a manneqin while you do dozens of strikes to him. How many do their techniqus and then when they spar they look like kickboxers? I would like to hear some feedback on this subject... It's something I've been looking at for some time now.
Brother John, I especially want some feedback from you buddy...

Ray Kellison

1. Actually a blackbelt will do delayed sword exactly the same way. The base technique is our common language and offers us a starting point from which to build. As your mastery grows, you can adjust the technique to your personality, your build and your opponent. Kenpo is not one size fits all it can be adjusted to fit the practitioner. You still need to learn your instructors version of the base technique so that everyone in your studio can communicate.

2. Zak Whitson has developed a training method he calls Kenpo Counterpoint which allows you to start slowly and build up intensity while praticing Kenpo technique. I think it works and you should check out his video. Both partners are responding fluidly and independently when this system is done right and the intensity can be built till both partners are moving full speed with resistance and power.

3. Clyde's right that you need to practice your base technique till it is automatic, powerful and effective. The rest of us aren't as skilled as Clyde and sometimes things go wrong. Kenpo Counterpoint fighting will allow you to respond to your opponent automatically and effectively and builds on your Kenpo skills. Lee Wedlake, Frank Trejo and Huk Planas have all endorsed this training method.

4. I have pulled off Kenpo techniques in sparring, but I either have to spend a long time setting up the technique or it accidently flowss out of the situation. Last week my 15 yo son accidently did sleeper during a point sparring class. The funny thing was he didn't even know what he had done. He was just on the outside of his opponents R arm, L foot forward andhe instinctively did the sleeper strike (it was the open target) and muscle memory kicked in and he started the sleeper hold takedown.

5. Usually sparring looks like kickboxing because it is kickboxing. Kenpo is really "The Art of Bar Fighting" (Huk Planas.) Try sparring 2 on2 or 1 on3 and add some obsticals in the middle of the studio. Suddenly it becomes Kenpo and not kickboxing.

6. If you want to look at Kenpo and Kickboxing, visit Frank Trejo who does a fabulous job of crossrelating the two.

Good luck,

Jeff

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Ray:

I'd have to say that I agree with the first couple of responses, and not--sorry to say--with what I take to be the spirit of the last one.

In other words, I say leave the techs alone for a while. There's a temptation in kenpo to be clever, to "advance the base," just because an option is possible. I think of it as resembling what happens with other technologies--computer types are always screwing around with computers just to screw around with computers, us literary types are always screwing around with books...

I particularly think it's a bad idea, a terrible idea, for nearly--nearly-- everybody below the level of black belt to be fiddling around with, say, Delayed Sword. What this tech teaches, first and foremost, is to step back and block. Everything else is gravy. I'm afraid that I think that when you teach yellow and orange belts to kick and block at the same time (sorry, B. John), you're teaching them a new way to get hit.

It's like piano, or dance, in this: "creativity," (and there's a misused word) comes out of practicing, practicing, practicing, the basics. Otherwise, it's just fingerpainting--which is why there are so many silly versions of the forms out there. Folks--and teachers-- "experimented" (as though you could experiment before you understood) just to be experimenting.

Again, sorry B. John. But I disagree with what I thought I read.

Thanks.

Damn - that was good.