A Student's Demand

[sojobow]

A prospective student (a newbie) enters your dojo and states that he has researched your training methods and noticed that the last 45 minutes of each class is devoted to sparring. He states that he will pay the normal scheduled fees but, he only wants to participate in the sparring sessions and nothing else. He will arrive a the start of each class but will only sit and wait until the sparring sessions begin. No rank expected nor will he spar against a female or anyone with less than 2 years experience in this particular style/system.

Should Sensei allow this? If yes, why? If no, why?

 

[Tony]

A student does not get to choose what he or she learns at a Martial arts class. There are rules with every school that everyone no matter what level of knowledge they have muct respect. It sounds to me such a person is only interested in becoming a better fighter and has no humility or respect what Martial Arts has to offer. If I were an instructor, and such a person came to my class he would have to go through the same training as everybody else.
If he had some prior training in another Art, then by all means he should be allowed to spar with the other grades to add some experience to their level of sparring. In my class we may ask to work on certain forms and have the instructor show us or another of his assistants. The last 30 minutes of the first class is dedicated to sparring which I have only recently began to take part in. But fighting and sparring are only a small aspect of Martial Arts and we cannot forget that!

 

[Aegis]

Fighting's only a small aspect of martial arts? You could have fooled me, I thought the martial arts were originally all about fighting.

 

[loki09789]

Fighting's only a small aspect of martial arts? You could have fooled me, I thought the martial arts were originally all about fighting.

Fighting is the mainstay of SD martial arts, but traditional training also tends to focus on internal development/personal growth/philosophy as well. The fight training is used to expose students to their fears, habits, personallity traits and give them the opportunity to understand themselves. The movements are sometimes representations of aspects of the philosophical framework that the art is orgaized under.

This sounds like a business negotiation, and it really is up to the individual teacher to decide. I would not take this student's proposal or money. Part of the training group is developing trust/cooperation in the team/family aspect of the training environment. This person wants to learn technique without understanding your framework or become part of that family. Let him take seminars or study videos if that is the case.

If the instructor takes this arrangement, this student is taught and hurts someone, the instructer could be considered collaterally liable for damages. The fact that he 'only learned the technniques but didn't participate in the whole class' won't be a good defense.

 

[Tony]

Well fighting in Martial Arts is a small part when you consider the other aspects like learning respect, discipline, humility, inner peace and a general positive outlook, longevity, improved fitness, flexibility and wisdom.
I'm not naive, I know that in Martial Arts there are a lot of devastating techniques but because of all the other elements I am disciplined and controlled enough never to use what I have learned excessively. It is always better to avoid conflict where possible but if that is not possible then use as much skill and force to escape safely from attack.
The thing I like about Kung Fu it makes you think. Everything we do has a use, the forms we learn are supposed to make us think about how each move can be applied in a real combat situation. And I think also with any Martial Art it can help relieve stress because all the hard training takes the focus out of feeling worried because you only concentrate on the moment!

Originally many years ago an Indian Monk named Boddhidharma came to visit the Monasteries of China and found that the Monks were lacking energy and could not meditate for very long. So he showed them exercises which helped them become more fit. These exercises became the basis of many of the Martial Arts styles today. That is why Buddhism and Martial Arts are closely related. Shaolin teaches Buddhism, Taoism and Martial Arts because the violence involved with deadly techniques without these teachings would have made them coldblooded killers without a care for the value of human life.

I read of a story of a Shaolin Monk who visited Brixton in London England. He was with a local instructor in a cafe. All of a sudden some infantile youths were making fun of him chanting "hari Krishna" and I think the other guy with said he was a Shaolin Monk. One of the Youths quickly realised " oh are i bet you're dangerous!" which is a bit of an understatement. The Youths continued to make silly sound effects associated with anyone who practices Martial Arts. The Monk was calm and serene. One of these Youths asked him " so what is it you do?" The Monk replied " I teach Buddhism" and with that the Youths confused, left them alone!

 

[Tony]

Fighting is the mainstay of SD martial arts, but traditional training also tends to focus on internal development/personal growth/philosophy as well. The fight training is used to expose students to their fears, habits, personallity traits and give them the opportunity to understand themselves. The movements are sometimes representations of aspects of the philosophical framework that the are it orgaized under.

This sounds like a business negotiation, and it really is up to the individual teacher to decide. I would not take this student's proposal or money. Part of the training group is developing trust/cooperation in the team/family aspect of the training environment. This person wants to learn technique without understanding your framework or become part of that family. Let him take seminars or study videos if that is the case.

If the instructor takes this arrangement, this student is taught and hurts someone, the instructer could be considered collaterally liable for damages. The fact that he 'only learned the technniques but didn't participate in the whole class' won't be a good defense.

Thanks Loki you've explained it much better than me! :asian:

 

[loki09789]

Thanks Loki you've explained it much better than me! :asian:

Funny, I was typing the same sentiment to you

 

[Tony]

Funny, I was typing the same sentiment to you

Yeah it is funny because I was just writing my next post in reply to Aegis, because it did provoke a reaction! Because I feel Martial Arts is so much more than fighting. As I finished writing what I wrote, I read what you wrote and it was on the same lines as me but I think you definately explained it better than me. I really coudn't have put it any better myself. I tried with teh story of the Shaolin Monk but you did a much better job.
I remember when I was having a discussion with one of my friends friends from his Taekwondo class. Mentioned that Martial Arts is not just about learning how to fight. I was a bit too slow to answer whe she asked me "so what is it about then?" I did my best to answer putting myself on the spot!
You see I have a friend who has started a Martial Art relatively late in his life and I think he feels that its just another way of making himself more dangerous! It makes me think that there must be something lacking in his training if he doesn't see beyond the fighting techniques!
I myself have begun to do more sparring in way to desensitise myself to being hit. Believe me I get no pleasure in hurting other people when there is no
need!

 

[bdparsons]

Absolutely not. If he wants to be associated with a class in anyway, it's the whole ball of wax or nothing. No picking and choosing allowed. The question is does he want to learn or just get experience fighting? Learning requires more than just getting on the mat and going at it. If he just wants experience he can get it down at the local bar/pub for free!

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

 

[Black Bear]

My instructor would allow it. I don't think I would.

 

[Jason Davis]

I know alot of people are going to dissagree with this But here goes.

Let the guy be a punching bag. He asked for it. He's not going to learn how to really hurt anyone without knowing any technique. Just make sure if your school has rules he is completely aware of them and agrees to aide by them.

Anyways; if he's good, the other students sparring skills will improve from sparring with him. And if he isn't good it will get the students ready to fight someone with no skill at all (witch isn't more dangerous, just harder because it's very uncontrolled and very unpredictable) so either way it can't be all that bad of a thing anyway.

In my class we spar full contact with no pads and it teaches you to block a real punch. People who come the first day spar. After a month you don't really get hit at all anymore (pain is the best teacher). People always come and just want to spar and not learn anything else and sifu lets them, they all get their A**es handed to them and then either they want to learn how to do it or they leave us alone.

Remember, everyone starts their journey in a different way and for different reasons but the character of someone who really wants to learn will always improve regaurdless of the reason they wanted to start learning. If the guy just wants to fight and thats it his martial arts career will last a max of 5 classes (people who just want to fight don't like to get beat up). If he really wants to be a martial artist it wil start off with the fighting, and last for ever and he will eventually want to learn all the aspects of your style. So i would say yes let him get beat up a couple times if he is really interested he'll stay.

just my opinion

 

[loki09789]

Let the guy be a punching bag. He asked for it. He's not going to learn how to really hurt anyone without knowing any technique. Just make sure if your school has rules he is completely aware of them and agrees to aide by them.

Anyways; if he's good, the other students sparring skills will improve from sparring with him. And if he isn't good it will get the students ready to fight someone with no skill at all (witch isn't more dangerous, just harder because it's very uncontrolled and very unpredictable) so either way it can't be all that bad of a thing anyway.

In a litigation free world, I would agree. Let him sink or swim and maybe he will realize that he needs that pre-sparring workout to develop technique.
BUT there is the safety and liability issue:

1. The pre sparring work out also acts as a warm up, physically and mentally. If he doesn't participate he might not be properly warmed up and prone to injury. Plus, the pre-sparring training gives the instructor the opportunity to get a feel for each students mental and physical state and personallity before he cuts them loose on each other with hate and discontent. If this guy is harboring an attitude or is a jerk, the pre sparring stuff will let the instructor see it so he can either refuse to let the guy participate or take him to task and reorient the student on the rules of the road in class.

2. Because of the above, regardless of the waivers, contracts or anything else, the instructor could be held liable for any injury to the student or collaterally liable for any damage the student does. If the instructor strays too far from the program that he normally adheres to and only teaches this student a part of it, it could be considered unethical business practice.

Sort of like a teacher who normally is preparing students for college exams and only teaches the fun "Jerk it to Moron as Blank it to blank" section without assessing the total skill/need of the student. It is unethical to let a student engage in sparring or dangerous activities without assessing/training the student to a level of readiness.

 

[Black Bear]

Jason and Mr. Prime Minister are both correct. In principle I agree with Jason, but like the Honourable PM, I don't want to deal with the crap that could come out of this.

My instructor is not a worrier, though, and wants to include as many people as possible, as much as possible, on whatever terms they favour, so I suspect he would accomodate the request at least for awhile, saying "let's try it out".

 

[RCastillo]

No chance! Direct that person elsewheres. Big red flag here on the legal problems one will take on. The best part; I don't like outsiders dictating what they do/want. :asian:

 

[Rich Parsons]

No chance! Direct that person elsewheres. Big red flag here on the legal problems one will take on. The best part; I don't like outsiders dictating what they do/want. :asian:

Yes they have training elsewhere and are lookig to test it. Go to tournaments and test yourself there.

 

[Chicago Green Dragon]

I wouldnt allow it.

I remeber in my old tai chi class we used to have a guy that would come by to learn tai chi sword from my teacher. He tried to practice tai chi with us but it was driving him nuts at how slow we could move and breath. So he left and would only come back for the sword lessons.

The sad thing is i think he was loosing out big time on some important lessons and things that he should learn.

My teacher kept teaching him Tai Chi sword.

I wouldnt have.

As for the sparing. If he wants to spar so bad i would recommend to him that he just goes to the tournaments and competes. For me its not a matter of money but principle.

Sometimes you need to empty your glass.

Chicago Green Dragon

:asian:

 

[Jason Davis]

In a litigation free world, I would agree. Let him sink or swim and maybe he will realize that he needs that pre-sparring workout to develop technique.
BUT there is the safety and liability issue:

1. The pre sparring work out also acts as a warm up, physically and mentally. If he doesn't participate he might not be properly warmed up and prone to injury. Plus, the pre-sparring training gives the instructor the opportunity to get a feel for each students mental and physical state and personallity before he cuts them loose on each other with hate and discontent. If this guy is harboring an attitude or is a jerk, the pre sparring stuff will let the instructor see it so he can either refuse to let the guy participate or take him to task and reorient the student on the rules of the road in class.

2. Because of the above, regardless of the waivers, contracts or anything else, the instructor could be held liable for any injury to the student or collaterally liable for any damage the student does. If the instructor strays too far from the program that he normally adheres to and only teaches this student a part of it, it could be considered unethical business practice.

Sort of like a teacher who normally is preparing students for college exams and only teaches the fun "Jerk it to Moron as Blank it to blank" section without assessing the total skill/need of the student. It is unethical to let a student engage in sparring or dangerous activities without assessing/training the student to a level of readiness.

I think my teacher's exact words were " Didn't some fat guy sue McDonalds for being fat or something? oh well whatever.""If i haven't been sued yet i guess i never will"

I guess my School is a little different than any other one. here are the differences:
1. We train where ever we can. mainly at the park and outside. in the rain in the cold in the snow in the hot.
2. We spar full contact with no pads and no real rules except don't try to leave bruises on the face (people have to go to work).
3. their are no belts and no Ranks the only way you progress is you learn a different animal style and weapon when you learn the form and can apply it to sparring.
4. Everyone Does the same thing in class at the same time regaurdless of Skill level ( when we stretch everyone stretches same for kicks, forms, sparring, etc.) the only variation of this is when we do forms everyone practices the one sifu wants us to practice.
5.It's free

so I don't know weather or not all that improper business stuff applies to us.

you are very right; however, for normal classes in a studio.

 

[loki09789]

I think my teacher's exact words were " Didn't some fat guy sue McDonalds for being fat or something? oh well whatever.""If i haven't been sued yet i guess i never will"

I guess my School is a little different than any other one. here are the differences:
1. We train where ever we can. mainly at the park and outside. in the rain in the cold in the snow in the hot.
2. We spar full contact with no pads and no real rules except don't try to leave bruises on the face (people have to go to work).
3. their are no belts and no Ranks the only way you progress is you learn a different animal style and weapon when you learn the form and can apply it to sparring.
4. Everyone Does the same thing in class at the same time regaurdless of Skill level ( when we stretch everyone stretches same for kicks, forms, sparring, etc.) the only variation of this is when we do forms everyone practices the one sifu wants us to practice.
5.It's free

so I don't know weather or not all that improper business stuff applies to us.

you are very right; however, for normal classes in a studio.

They do apply because it is a verbal contractual agreement. Honestly the looser the organization, the less clear and specific the expectations and the lack of records are a serious danger to your instructors liability. Chances are the people who would come to your instructor, who might consider suing for some problem would only stop because they figure he has nothing to sue for. His only defense right now, in civil legallity is his percieved 'poverty'

 

[wadowoman]

I would point him in the direction of a boxing gym. Fighting only is not martial arts and he therefore has no place in the dojo.

Just my opinion and no offence to anyone intended, but I do feel quite strongly about this.
Sharon

 

[TonyM.]

Maybe I'd allow it if I crossed hands with the person first to see where they're coming from. If they were only OK I'd have to ask that they attend the full classes. If they were good I might let them spar with the students, probably not. I prefer to go out and find good people of different styles to beat my students up myself.