A person's unbalance is the same as a weight

Tony Dismukes

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Just watched some highlights. He was very impressive. He reminds me of Genki Sudo.
I hadn't thought of that comparison before, but now that I think about it, you're right. They both had a level of creativity and unpredictability that only comes from the ability to be completely relaxed and playful in the middle of a fight.

The difference is that in MMA, Genki Sudo was appreciated for putting on a show, while Emanuel Augustus's career apparently suffered from judges who felt his antics were disrespectful towards boxing and scored bouts accordingly.
 

Wing Woo Gar

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I hadn't thought of that comparison before, but now that I think about it, you're right. They both had a level of creativity and unpredictability that only comes from the ability to be completely relaxed and playful in the middle of a fight.

The difference is that in MMA, Genki Sudo was appreciated for putting on a show, while Emanuel Augustus's career apparently suffered from judges who felt his antics were disrespectful towards boxing and scored bouts accordingly.
I noticed he was under appreciated by judges. His proprioceptive capabilities were top notch. His fitness was (like most boxers) at a very high level. Thanks for the recommendation because I like quirky and unique fighters.
 

Fungus

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Drunken style requires an enormous output of energy, I have only seen it done well by two people. If you lose balance you also lose structure. No root, no structure, no punch. Conditioning and fitness are as important an ingredient as any technique training.
I didn't mean to suggest that actually doing the drunken master, without beeing drunk is easy.

I also didn't mean that actually loose balance, but more like insted of with highly controlled dynamics you stumble your way as you move - but catch yourself in the last split second. Pretty much like you would do naturally when drunk or extremely tired.

Our instructors often tells us to "relax" save energy, and only tense upon impact. I have toyed around with striking and kicking a heavy back why actually tired and my whole body is spaghetti, and then you are completely relaxed and are force to rely only on technique, with minimal muscle force. Then muscles tense in the last fraction of a second (otherwise your wrists/hand/feet would get into trouble). I find that it would be awesome to master. The difficulty i have found that if you are tensed it's more difficfult and if you forget to tense up during impact you will hurt yourself.

It's someone the search for the ultimatle "natural movements" that resonates with your body and takes minimal energy, beeing relaxed would I presme also make all movements faster and more snappy.
 

wab25

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Here is another example that you lose your balance intentionally. You regain your balance back after you take your opponent down.


Why is it beneficial to lose your balance during the throw? There are many ways of doing this throw, while maintaining your balance:

(last 30 seconds....)


Why would I prefer to do the version where I lose my balance...?
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Why is it beneficial to lose your balance during the throw? There are many ways of doing this throw, while maintaining your balance:
You use this to against a strong opponent that your own force may not be enough. You borrow force from your own gravity.

- You lose balance by moving your center outside of your base.
- Your gravity pulls your body down.
- Your body pull/push your opponent down.
- You then regain your balance back.

 
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Gerry Seymour

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Why is it beneficial to lose your balance during the throw? There are many ways of doing this throw, while maintaining your balance:

(last 30 seconds....)


Why would I prefer to do the version where I lose my balance...?
Judo and Aikido also have throws where you sacrifice balance (I learned them as sutemi waza) to use your weight to offset their strength (which they are using to maintain structure). I don't see a big benefit in that particular throw, but I suppose that may be because I do a similar one that relies on structure, and giving up some structure can end badly.
 

Fungus

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Why is it beneficial to lose your balance during the throw? There are many ways of doing this throw, while maintaining your balance:
I don't train throws but generally speaking my reflection on the "natural" stumbling moves vs highly controlled dynamical ones was to ponder which is beneficial from the persepective of energy expenditure.

I have similar reflections with some kicks and punches, that throwing or allow yourself to "fall" into the target (ie your opponent) seems like a "cheap" way to add power; provided that you count on beeing to recover from the final state.

But there are certainly cons as wel I think. Speed and control for example. But if you are tired - what works then? For me saving energy for when its really needed seems like a key aspect as well. If you waste tons of energy in the first 30s of a fight doing lots of fancy stuff then if the opponent is still standing you may be an easy pray.

I like energy saving techniques, even if they have some cons. Especially that these methods means high comittement and I think aikido are experts in using that to yor disadvantage and directing that energy, so this is I supposed why it's also risky. But getting low on energy is risky anyway I think, so what do you do?
 
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Gerry Seymour

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I think aikido are experts in using that to yor disadvantage and directing that energy
Just for clarity, I don't think aiki arts are exponentially different in their level of ability at this. A good aikidoka is probably a bit better at this than a good judoka, simply because they spend more time practicing this, and less time practicing direct-force applications. Put too much forward momentum into something, and a collegiate wrestler will be as likely to use it against you (and probably more likely to succeed, given their practice with live resistance).

The real difference, as I see it, is how they make use of that energy/momentum you give them, including some of the aiki mechanics they use to do so.
 

wab25

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You use this to against a strong opponent that your own force may not be enough.
Its interesting that in your video showing this.... its the bigger stronger guy, throwing the smaller guy. The bigger stronger guy had to lose his balance to have enough strength to throw the little guy?

- You lose balance by moving your center outside of your base.
- Your gravity pulls your body down.
- Your body pull/push your opponent down.
- You then regain your balance back.
Gravity pulls my body down, whether I am on balance or not. I am able to use the power generated by gravity pulling my body down, without giving up my balance.

When a person loses their balance, they lose their strength as well. It does not matter if the person is doing the technique or receiving the technique... if a person loses their balance, they are losing their strength. The trick is to unbalance the other guy, while keeping your balance.

If you don't get your balance back, you will end like this - sacrifice throw.
Which is one reason why I prefer not to give up my balance in the first place.

But if you are tired - what works then? For me saving energy for when its really needed seems like a key aspect as well. If you waste tons of energy in the first 30s of a fight doing lots of fancy stuff then if the opponent is still standing you may be an easy pray.
Maintaining your balance and structure is the best way to be efficient. If you lose your balance to fall forward, then you have to expend even more energy to stop that forward momentum, and then more to regain your balance. By maintaining your balance and structure, most or your expended energy goes into the technique, without having to expend the same amount of energy to recover from the technique just thrown.

Judo and Aikido also have throws where you sacrifice balance (I learned them as sutemi waza) to use your weight to offset their strength (which they are using to maintain structure). I don't see a big benefit in that particular throw, but I suppose that may be because I do a similar one that relies on structure, and giving up some structure can end badly.
That's kind of a different question. The example throws were leg reaps, where the thrower remained on his feet. Why do I want to reap the leg and have to stumble forward with little hop steps, instead of maintaining my balance so that I can move to the next thing, without having to take the stumbling hops to recover my balance first? If I maintain my balance through that throw, I have no recovery time or energy... thus I can use that time and energy to run away, or to break the arm while the guy is falling or to set up a choke that he falls into or throw a strike to catch the guy bouncing up off the floor....

In sutemi waza... you don't lose your balance.... you know where it is... and you do not have to go chase it down afterwards. For sutemi waza, I like to think of it in terms of attaching my weight to the other guys structure in a way that I become the center of rotation. I am not losing my balance, but placing my weight in the right place in order to control the path the other guy takes. Just because you grab the other guy and fall down, does not mean he will be thrown over you. Your weight needs to take a specific path to a specific point, once the connection has been made. If done right, you land gently while the other guy take most of the impact... more like balancing on a moving platform, than losing your balance and having to expend more energy to go recover your balance and stop your momentum.
 

Gerry Seymour

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That's kind of a different question. The example throws were leg reaps, where the thrower remained on his feet. Why do I want to reap the leg and have to stumble forward with little hop steps, instead of maintaining my balance so that I can move to the next thing, without having to take the stumbling hops to recover my balance first? If I maintain my balance through that throw, I have no recovery time or energy... thus I can use that time and energy to run away, or to break the arm while the guy is falling or to set up a choke that he falls into or throw a strike to catch the guy bouncing up off the floor....
Agreed. As I said, I can't see the benefit in that throw. If I need to overcommit that much, I don't see it as a good choice for the situation, but there may be more principles around it I don't understand.

In sutemi waza... you don't lose your balance.... you know where it is... and you do not have to go chase it down afterwards.
Okay, that's a reasonable way of saying it. I refer to it as "sacrificing balance", because we have some sutemi waza where you take the incoming momentum and add more of your own, giving up your balance and going to the ground in a different direction than they intended. An easy example is in response to a reaping throw like this (our version is "leg sweep" - similar to osoto gari). As they move you toward off-balance, you go with that (adding more pivot) and pull them into a sacrifice throw across the space they were planning to land you in. It's probably a Judo throw, but I don't know it as such.

For sutemi waza, I like to think of it in terms of attaching my weight to the other guys structure in a way that I become the center of rotation. I am not losing my balance, but placing my weight in the right place in order to control the path the other guy takes. Just because you grab the other guy and fall down, does not mean he will be thrown over you. Your weight needs to take a specific path to a specific point, once the connection has been made. If done right, you land gently while the other guy take most of the impact... more like balancing on a moving platform, than losing your balance and having to expend more energy to go recover your balance and stop your momentum.
Agredd.
 

isshinryuronin

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Judo and Aikido also have throws where you sacrifice balance
Also true in sumo and its Korean cousin, ssireum. But these are sports where if the opponent hits the ground first the point is already made, and you pay no price for being out of position at the end. In actual combat this will prevent you from following up with a finishing strike, or worse, the opponent recovers faster than you.

There are times when, in actual combat, a sacrifice move may be in order such as if you're in dire straits and it's your only option. And in a slightly different context, you sacrifice some skin to damage the opponent's muscle or sacrifice muscle to damage bone.
 

Fungus

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Just for clarity, I don't think aiki arts are exponentially different in their level of ability at this. A good aikidoka is probably a bit better at this than a good judoka, simply because they spend more time practicing this, and less time practicing direct-force applications. Put too much forward momentum into something, and a collegiate wrestler will be as likely to use it against you (and probably more likely to succeed, given their practice with live resistance).

The real difference, as I see it, is how they make use of that energy/momentum you give them, including some of the aiki mechanics they use to do so.
You are probably right.

The only universal thing I remember and learned as kid doing greco-roman wrestling (which doesn't allow attacking the legs) is to keep my center of gravity as low as possible, lower than my opponent. And redirecting forward momentum into a throw pivoting him over my hip. But I recall that a commong counter was that instead of resisting the throw, the opponent could add to the angular momentum after redirection so that instead of him landing on the back, I would as an unpleasant surprise.

But if I do that in kyokushin I would get a legal knee or in my head :wacky:
 

marvin8

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I didn't mean to suggest that actually doing the drunken master, without beeing drunk is easy.

I also didn't mean that actually loose balance, but more like insted of with highly controlled dynamics you stumble your way as you move - but catch yourself in the last split second. Pretty much like you would do naturally when drunk or extremely tired.
Most of the time, Augustus wasn't off balance. From a distance, he shifts his weight and is relaxed while dancing. Stepping into range and balanced, he speeds up, throws, slips or pulls punches.

Our instructors often tells us to "relax" save energy, and only tense upon impact. I have toyed around with striking and kicking a heavy back why actually tired and my whole body is spaghetti, and then you are completely relaxed and are force to rely only on technique, with minimal muscle force. Then muscles tense in the last fraction of a second (otherwise your wrists/hand/feet would get into trouble). I find that it would be awesome to master. The difficulty i have found that if you are tensed it's more difficfult and if you forget to tense up during impact you will hurt yourself.
Most instructors teach you to relax with proper structure. Being unbalanced in striking range can make you vulnerable.


It's someone the search for the ultimatle "natural movements" that resonates with your body and takes minimal energy, beeing relaxed would I presme also make all movements faster and more snappy.
There are differences between boxing and karate movement. Augustus would slip or pull and punch, shifting his weight in a wide range while simultaneously timing the opponentdifferent from trying to off balance the opponent first.

I have similar reflections with some kicks and punches, that throwing or allow yourself to "fall" into the target (ie your opponent) seems like a "cheap" way to add power; provided that you count on beeing to recover from the final state.

But there are certainly cons as wel I think. Speed and control for example. But if you are tired - what works then? For me saving energy for when its really needed seems like a key aspect as well. If you waste tons of energy in the first 30s of a fight doing lots of fancy stuff then if the opponent is still standing you may be an easy pray.
Stepping out of range, lower your arms, control, resetting, relaxing, breathing and feinting.

I like energy saving techniques, even if they have some cons. Especially that these methods means high comittement and I think aikido are experts in using that to yor disadvantage and directing that energy, so this is I supposed why it's also risky. But getting low on energy is risky anyway I think, so what do you do?
Aikido and boxing can be similar in that you want to harmonize (dance) with your opponent and use his energy to create a head on collision (boxing) or throw (aikido).

Augustus uses his movement and steps as feints (less energy) to control his opponent, not "One Strike, One Kill." He uses his whole bodyrotating, shifting his weight, leading with his body before punching. Augustus is a good fighter who is entertaining, not great.

Ben Whittaker and Naseem Hamed doing the drunken thing...



 

Taiji Rebel

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Most of the time, Augustus wasn't off balance. From a distance, he shifts his weight and is relaxed while dancing. Stepping into range and balanced, he speeds up, throws, slips or pulls punches.


Most instructors teach you to relax with proper structure. Being unbalanced in striking range can make you vulnerable.



There are differences between boxing and karate movement. Augustus would slip or pull and punch, shifting his weight in a wide range while simultaneously timing the opponentdifferent from trying to off balance the opponent first.


Stepping out of range, lower your arms, control, resetting, relaxing, breathing and feinting.


Aikido and boxing can be similar in that you want to harmonize (dance) with your opponent and use his energy to create a head on collision (boxing) or throw (aikido).

Augustus uses his movement and steps as feints (less energy) to control his opponent, not "One Strike, One Kill." He uses his whole bodyrotating, shifting his weight, leading with his body before punching. Augustus is a good fighter who is entertaining, not great.

Ben Whittaker and Naseem Hamed doing the drunken thing...



Marco Antonio Barrera exposed the weaknesses of Prince Naseem's style - Naz boxed once more as a professional and then retired from the fight game:

 
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