3 levels of MA training

[Kung Fu Wang]

MA training can be defined into 3 different levels.

There are:

Beginner level: standing punch - punch when feet are not moving.
Intermediate level: running punch - punch when feet are moving (with footwork). In this level, the term "static stance" no longer exist.
Advance level: body twisting punch - punch with body and not with arm. In this level, you only see body movement. You don't see arm movement.

What your opinion on this?

 

[Headhunter]

How are you meaning this?

Do you mean it as in you teach it like this e,g you teach a beginner just how to punch with no foot movement.

Or do you mean that's how a beginner would punch

 

[Gerry Seymour]

MA training can be defined into 3 different levels.

There are:

Beginner level: standing punch - punch when feet are not moving.
Intermediate level: running punch - punch when feet are moving (with footwork). In this level, the term "static stance" no longer exist.
Advance level: body twisting punch - punch with body and not with arm. In this level, you only see body movement. You don't see arm movement.

What your opinion on this?

This doesn't apply well to what we do. The arm movement doesn't go away as we progress, and the body movement is actually introduced at the beginning stage.

 

[Tez3]

Beginner level: standing punch - punch when feet are not moving.

That's not a beginner level, that's a person who has never been taught. We teach from the very first lesson how to move, they may not do it well at first but they move.

 

[marques]

MA training can be defined into 3 different levels.

There are:

Beginner level: standing punch - punch when feet are not moving.
Intermediate level: running punch - punch when feet are moving (with footwork). In this level, the term "static stance" no longer exist.
Advance level: body twisting punch - punch with body and not with arm. In this level, you only see body movement. You don't see arm movement.

What your opinion on this?

Well, it may be true according to the style.
I started by static feet and stance. But also started trying to use the full body since the beginning. So at the intermediate level it should be there, already. And this separation is no longer applicable...

 

[Paul_D]

Unless you practice Judo ;-)

 

[Midnight-shadow]

I find it very hard to generalise this sort of thing as it differs completely depending on the principles of the style in question. In the style I practice, generating power from the waist is one of our core principles and so is taught from the very beginning. Our levels (if you really want to classify them in such a way) would be something like this:

Beginner level: standing punch with basic hip rotation
Intermediate level: punching with basic footwork (either stepping or shuffling) and hip rotation
Advanced level: I'll let you know when I get to it

 

[Buka]

I teach using the body and feet in punching from a beginner's level on day one.

 

[geezer]

There are:
Beginner level: standing punch - punch when feet are not moving.
Intermediate level: running punch - punch when feet are moving (with footwork). In this level, the term "static stance" no longer exist.
Advance level: body twisting punch - punch with body and not with arm. In this level, you only see body movement. You don't see arm movement.
...What your opinion on this?

Clearly this is directed at pugilistic arts. Within that context, I suppose this would be somewhat accurate for the way my art, Wing Chun, has been traditionally taught, and I know you also once trained WC, John. Consider:

First, Siu Nim Tau: Stance locked in Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma with basic arm movements including punching isolated without steps or body input.

Second, Chum Kiu: Adding footwork to the equation, steps and stance turning adding power to the arms.

Later, Biu Tze and the Mook Yang Jong: Adding elastic body energy, the arms become looser and springy, conducting the body power, and you begin to experience real fa jin.


On the other hand people that train to fight or compete will not slog through this slow-paced traditional curriculum. They will move straight into practical, high-percentage movements and train them along with footwork and body movement from the start. And they should have some solid, functional ability in a few months. I 'll bet this is what Tez was getting at.

Similarly, in the Escrima I train, striking movements (with or without weapons) are linked to steps and body movement from the very first lesson. You quickly get to a functional level. Unfortunately it still takes some of us (like me) forever to get any good, though!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

On the other hand people that train to fight or compete will not slog through this slow-paced traditional curriculum. They will move straight into practical, high-percentage movements and train them along with footwork and body movement from the start. And they should have some solid, functional ability in a few months. I 'll bet this is what Tez was getting at.

If we divide our training into 3 levels,

1. beginner,
2. intermediate,
3. advance.

Assume one has to pass 1 level before he can get into next level. The question is the "pass qualification". Does he need A score to pass. or he can pass with a B score, or even a C score.

Also if he gets C during the beginner level. One day when he has reached to the advance level, can he come back and make A score in his beginner level?

This may involve with some bad habit that will need to be removed later on.

 

[geezer]

If we divide our training into 3 levels,1. beginner, 2. intermediate, 3. advance. Assume one has to pass 1 level before he can get into next level. The question is the "pass qualification". Does he need A score to pass. or he can pass with a B score, or even a C score. Also if he gets C during the beginner level. One day when he has reached to the advance level, can he come back and make A score in his beginner level? This may involve with some bad habit that will need to be removed later on.

This brings up an age-old pedagogical question. Is it better to teach one step at a time and demand perfection at each step before progressing to the next, or is it better to teach holistically with the student doing a little of several interrelated steps at the same time? Usually a balanced approach involving both methods is most successful.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This brings up an age-old pedagogical question. Is it better to teach one step at a time and demand perfection at each step before progressing to the next, or is it better to teach holistically with the student doing a little of several interrelated steps at the same time? Usually a balanced approach involving both methods is most successful.

It's the age old argument.

- You have spent too much money on your foundation and run out of money for your roof. You end with a house that you can't live in.

- You have spent too much time to build up your MA foundation. You then find out you are too old to "spar". You end with "training MA for health".

 

[Headhunter]

If we divide our training into 3 levels,

1. beginner,
2. intermediate,
3. advance.

Assume one has to pass 1 level before he can get into next level. The question is the "pass qualification". Does he need A score to pass. or he can pass with a B score, or even a C score.

Also if he gets C during the beginner level. One day when he has reached to the advance level, can he come back and make A score in his beginner level?

This may involve with some bad habit that will need to be removed later on.

Why give any bad habits at all just teach them properly from the beginning

 

[Martial D]

MA training can be defined into 3 different levels.

There are:

Beginner level: standing punch - punch when feet are not moving.
Intermediate level: running punch - punch when feet are moving (with footwork). In this level, the term "static stance" no longer exist.
Advance level: body twisting punch - punch with body and not with arm. In this level, you only see body movement. You don't see arm movement.

What your opinion on this?

True for some styles and curriculums I guess. Some, like Boxing, Jui Jitsu, Judo, and Mui Thai do not follow these steps.

How about.

1)basic movements
2)theory/drilling
3)movement application.

 

[hoshin1600]

this thinking is why that tai chi guy was run over by the MMA guy.

 

[Martial D]

this thinking is why that tai chi guy was run over by the MMA guy.

Care to elaborate?

 

[hoshin1600]

Care to elaborate?

because this entire thought process of pre determined progression is an exercise in mental masturbation.
if you want to hit hard go and hit the heavy bag. with experience and a coach to point out your errors, you will make the corrections you need in a natural progression that your mind and body are able to absorb. the dogma that only the master knows everything and he will spoon feed you what you need, when you need it leads to a reliance on the master that inhibits self knowledge. before long you are believing in chi balls and flying from tree top to tree top. not to mention it takes you 30 years to learn to throw a punch.
i dont want to slam anyone , everyone is free to do as they wish, but some posters spend a lot of time in the world of theoretical mind play, when the real answer is go hit the bag.

when you dont train in a holistic way and you break it down to small little segments of knowledge dished out a piece at a time you lose sight of the actual goal and you end up majoring in minor things.

 

[jobo]

because this entire thought process of pre determined progression is an exercise in mental masturbation.
if you want to hit hard go and hit the heavy bag. with experience and a coach to point out your errors, you will make the corrections you need in a natural progression that your mind and body are able to absorb. the dogma that only the master knows everything and he will spoon feed you what you need, when you need it leads to a reliance on the master that inhibits self knowledge. before long you are believing in chi balls and flying from tree top to tree top. not to mention it takes you 30 years to learn to throw a punch.
i dont want to slam anyone , everyone is free to do as they wish, but some posters spend a lot of time in the world of theoretical mind play, when the real answer is go hit the bag.

when you dont train in a holistic way and you break it down to small little segments of knowledge dished out a piece at a time you lose sight of the actual goal and you end up majoring in minor things.

learning any activity is about ingraining movement patterns, hitting bags is extremely good at ingraining the pattern of punching a unguarded opponent who stands there and let's you hit hem repeatedly. That may come in handy if your mugged by a punch bag on the way home from the pub. But its a long way short of being able to fight something with legs and arms,its only one step up from punching cinderblock

 

[Steve]

Beginner level: Learning techniques
Intermediate Level: Using techniques effectively
Advanced Level: Teaching techniques

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Why give any bad habits at all just teach them properly from the beginning

IMO, it may be too difficult for beginner. For us that we are no long beginner, we may not feel the same difficulty that beginner may have to feel.

For example, during the

- beginner stage, when you punch, you try to understand the body rotation and borrow force from the ground.
- intermediate stage, you want to integrate footwork into your punch. Now you have to coordinate your leg movement with your arm movement. That will make your punch a bit more complicate. If you pay too much attention on your footwork, you may pay less attention on your power generation. The other way around may be true too. You may end with not perfect in your power generation and also not perfect in your arm and leg coordination.