Yellow/Orange Belt Attacks (Catalysts)

Discussion in 'Kenpo - (EPAK) Ed Parker's American Kenpo Karate S' started by Yondanchris, Jul 25, 2014.

  1. Yondanchris

    Yondanchris Master Black Belt

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    Yellow/Orange Belt Attacks per technique...

    Catalyst (Dictionary.com)
    1. Chemistry a substance that causes or accelerates a chemical reaction without itself being affected.
    2. something that causes activity between two or more persons or forces without itself being affected.
    3. a person or thing that precipitates an event or change: His imprisonment by the government served
    as the catalyst that helped transform social unrest into revolution.
    4.a person whose talk, enthusiasm, or energy causes others to be more friendly, enthusiastic, or energetic.

    as a friend recently told me "I go into a fight with no techniques, my opponent is my technique".

    Food for thought!

    Head Instructor Clark Cole doing the attacks:


     
  2. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes Senior Master

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    Good idea, but I don't care for the execution. The attacks demonstrated don't match what you would see from either a skilled opponent or an untrained attacker.

    The intro says "a good attack is when the person throwing the attack does not stop themselves, the defender should be stopping the attacker!" Good thought, but in the demonstration the "attacker" is stopping himself at an extremely unrealistic point, generally with the arms hanging out fully extended. To be more realistic, linear attacks should be retracted after full extension and circular attacks should continue through their arc after impact. Look at the club attack, for example. Would anyone ever swing a stick that way, freezing with their arm full extended? Not that I've ever seen. When you swing a stick, you swing it all the way through to the end of it's natural arc.

    I suppose the line about the attacker not stopping himself is supposed to mean that you shouldn't practice against attacks which are pulled short of connecting with the defender. That should go without saying, but you really need to practice with attacks that go all the way through their natural motion.

    This is important because it affects what defenses will actually work. There are a lot of impressive looking techniques I can demonstrate against someone who throws a crappy "attack" and then freezes leaning off-balance with his arms fully extended. Unfortunately they won't work against an attacker who moves realistically.

    "CAUTION!!! This is not a nice video. If you are not used to watching attacks that have intent and force behind them, then stop watching."
    Really? Aside from the technical flaws in the attacks, these are the sort of slow, non-threatening movements that you might use for walking beginners through learning some basics. There's certainly a time and place for that - if the student screws up his defense he won't be really hurt by those attacks. Still, I'm not sure how you could have any less intent and force behind those attacks and still be practicing martial arts.
     
  3. Touch Of Death

    Touch Of Death Sr. Grandmaster

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    While you make a good point, you must realize that those stupid Bobs fall down with any real force, and he would look even more silly trying to catch, and then getting taken down by the Bob... As I have. :( He can't win.
    Sean
     
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  4. Touch Of Death

    Touch Of Death Sr. Grandmaster

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    Childs toys, they are best. :yoda:
     
  5. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes Senior Master

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    Yeah, I know. I can understand not wanting to hit the Bob full force for that reason. Still, it's kind of silly to pretend that these sorts of slow careful attacks are the sort of not-nice real world violence that would induce the viewer to turn off the video. More importantly, there's no reason for leaving punches hanging out like that.
     
  6. Touch Of Death

    Touch Of Death Sr. Grandmaster

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    Grabbing, and plucking are two reasons, just off the top of my head. :)
     
  7. hoshin1600

    hoshin1600 Master of Arts

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    i hate always having to be the one to say stuff like this but...what the hell was that? that was the most boring video i have ever watched. that was suposed to be realistic? that was the opposite of realistic. ok so now my question is, what is the point of this thread?
     
  8. K-man

    K-man Grandmaster

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    I can hit my Bob with full force and the bugger won't ever go down. :)

    In the OP there was a quote that caught my eye ... "I go into a fight with no techniques, my opponent is my technique".

    Now that is so very true. Nobody goes into a fight saying I am going to do ABC, you name the technique. The opportunity to use that technique might never become available during any particular confrontation. I might be wrong as I have no experience in American Kenpo, but the impression I have is that there are 7,267 different techniques for 7,267 different attacks. This is totally at odds with what I teach both in Karate and Krav where I teach a handful of applications that cover a huge number of attacks. so if we go back to the quote it seems that the author has the same idea. Your opponent gives you the opportunity to use a technique from your armoury and instinctively that's what you do.

    I constantly tell my guys, "you say 'thank you' and use whatever opportunity your opponent gives you".
    :asian:
     
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  9. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Yeah… sorry, Chris, but I'm with the others here (Hoshin, Tony…).

    "There is no Kenpo in this video" Yes, there is. It's all Kenpo. They're Kenpo attacks… they're not realistic, or street, or anything of the sort. They are stylised (to the style of Kenpo) attacks which provide a start point for the execution of techniques.

    "This is not a nice video" Well… that's true… but not for the reasons given (by the video itself). It's perfectly sanitised and nice that way. It's not a "nice" video because it's rather lacklustre, and flawed in it's execution of it's intended aim.

    The habit of stopping the attacks with an extended arm is flat out terrible. The lack of commitment from Mr Cole throughout is, for someone of his standing and experience, and considering the set-up of the video, frankly deplorable.

    To be honest, even without a Kenpo background, I'm positive that I, or many others here, could give a better rendition of all these attacks. This, to me, is little more than a wasted opportunity at best, and outright delusion at worst.
     
  10. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

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    IMHO, the attacks reflect the disconnect that people have who have not experienced violence or witness it on a regualar/semi-regular basis.

    An interesting study for many schools would be to look at their kenpo "attacks" (or any other art that claims to train for a more modern "streetfighting" approach) and find a corresponding youtube video of an actual street attack that was caught on camera. Compare the two, adjust accordingly.
     
  11. Yondanchris

    Yondanchris Master Black Belt

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    re-posted from Mr. Cole's facebook page:

    Okay, so I put a video on you tube, for my students to see how I want them to practice not just their techniques, but, the attacks that will make sure their techniques will not be worthless to them.

    This is the video,


    Chris puts it up on Kenpotalk and the fun begins and this is what the nest of trolls have to say,

    http://www.kenpotalk.com/forum/15-parkers-kenpo-epak-general/15382-yellow-orange-belt-attacks-catalysts.html

    I think it is important to remember that being an internet troll/warrior is all fine a dandy. Ron Chapel seems to think that I should give back my black belt and cease all further teaching. Maybe he would like it if I apologized to all of the people I have taught in the last 23 years, I dunno.

    But I will press on. Mongo like candy...

    [Personal contact info and challenge removed per TOS.]
    Clark
    WE ARE BORG.....................THAT'S RIGHT
     
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  12. Touch Of Death

    Touch Of Death Sr. Grandmaster

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    It did look to me like it was a basic attack vid, for student reference, and I hope I came across that way when trolling KT. :)
     
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  13. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Chris, bluntly, that comes across as a complete cop out… rather than actually counter, or even address, the critiques and criticisms, Mr Cole goes straight to "put up or shut up"? Really?

    The reality is that it really doesn't matter whether these comments are made in person or online… if they're valid, they're valid. If criticism wasn't wanted, I might suggest clearing with Mr Cole before you put more of his videos or comments up… he started out looking like he doesn't understand actual violence, and now he's playing macho tough-guy… neither of which are showing him in any form of positive light.

    Here's a clue for Clark Cole… just because people disagree with you (online), or have criticisms of what he's done… it doesn't make them "trolls". If that's his automatic go-to, his personal evaluation, then he genuinely does have the ego issues that are mentioned on the Kempotalk thread. The idea that the only people who could be criticising him are trolls is just sad and delusional.

    Look, confidence in abilities is one thing… but to constantly hear that what you're doing is flawed, and to respond with "but I will press on. Mongo like candy" is just idiocy. Whether he realises it or not, playing (up) to an idea that he's too stupid to stop doing things badly is actually just re-enforcing that idea… someone who's genuinely confident doesn't lower themselves to such acceptance of ideas. Look to the conversations here with Al Case… he would do the same thing (disingenuously "accepting" the criticism)… and he just looked terrible doing so… as it actually is taken as an element of truth being accepted by the person being criticised. In other words, Mr Cole has just said "Yeah, I'm an idiot who doesn't know what I'm doing, but I'm too stupid and stubborn to change… ha, ha, just joking! (but not really…) Gotcha all! (I really think they're right…) See ya, wouldn't want to be ya!" That's the actual message he's sending.

    If he is going to actually address the critiques, and he gives permission for his posts to be put up here (or wants to join the conversation himself, assuming he's not previously banned for something?), cool. But this is a non-answer, and an empty show of bravado, combined with very poor understanding of psychology or how to portray character.

    Oh, and I'd also take out the phone number from the post, if you can (might need a mod to help, if you're past the edit window), as I'm pretty sure there's something in the TOS about that…
     
  14. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes Senior Master

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    For what it's worth "troll" has a specific meaning in internet parlance (when it's not being misused to indicate "anyone I disagree with"). It refers to someone who is making claims they don't necessarily believe, just to stir up a reaction and start an argument.

    Mr. Cole's video seems to be panned by every person who has responded to it (either here or over at KempoTalk) as not really demonstrating what he claims it is intended to show. If Mr. Cole thinks we are all just saying this for the sake of starting an argument, then he is sadly mistaken. I don't know Mr. Cole. I have no interest in starting an argument with him or his students. I have no knowledge or opinion one way or another of his martial arts skills or fighting ability. Anyone who cares to can read my posting history and see that I am not given to trolling in any shape or form.

    That said, the video he put out does not show what it claims to. It claims to show attacks with real force and intent. It claims to show attacks that are not stopped by the attacker. Instead, it shows slow, somewhat stylized, attacks which wouldn't harm anyone and which end with the attacker freezing halfway through the natural motion in a vulnerable position. There may be a use for this sort of movement in certain teaching scenarios, but it's not what he is claiming.

    For what it's worth, this is my perception based on 33 years of martial arts training and a certain degree of exposure to real world violence. It appears that a lot of people with different martial arts backgrounds agree with what I'm seeing.

    As Chris P. pointed out, acting macho and challenging people to "tell him to his face" rather than addressing any of the critiques doesn't really make Mr. Cole look good at all.
     
  15. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    I've never used a "Bob, the Training Dummy". Some of my friends have them in their schools, but I haven't used it or taught with it. But being laid off and collecting unemployment does have it's advantages. I just went to youtube and watched ten pages of Bob the Dummy videos. It did bring me to an unexpected revelation. One that I will insist upon, pull rank and demand for my students who run dojos.

    Heretofore, we will never allow a Bob the Training Dummy and a video camera in the same room. Not ever.


    There was a cute vid from the old TV show Soap on there. He was the original Bob the dummy. Other than that I almost wanted to go blind.
     
  16. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    Poor old BOB can be as useful as any other training tool...


    The problem isn't BOB the Dummy, it's the dummies on YouBoob...
     
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  17. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    I saw that one, liked it, too. It was one of the few exceptions to what I wrote. And I love the idea of doing it in front of a mirror for the opposite view. That's a great idea.
     
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  18. hoshin1600

    hoshin1600 Master of Arts

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    Buka i am surprised you dont like the BOB. i have one and love it. its not for power, ill give you that. anyone with a mediocre punch will knock it over. butt.. the real use is in "simulator fidelity". which means the degree of realism of the training equipment. if you put a shirt on a BOB and (dont laugh ) a wig. your brain will accept this is a simulation drill. this is the same concept as law enforcement and the military replacing bulls eye targets to silouetts and i think now they are using some kind of actual 3d photo of a bad guy. when they did this transition the successfull firing rates increased dramaticly. i like to use the BOB to hard wire responses that i can not do with live people.

    but i digress...

    i still dont get what the OP is trying to accomplish or what the whole point of this thread is supposed to be. he posted a video from youtube, people didnt find it usefull or credible for the suposed intent then makes an other post which made no sense to me. if there is another opinion to counter what has been posted and written then lets have the debate. it is possible we are all wrong and misunderstood so please post something coherent and state your case as a counter argument.
     
  19. Touch Of Death

    Touch Of Death Sr. Grandmaster

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    If the Bob doesn't fall down, perhaps those were weak strikes. :)
     
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  20. K-man

    K-man Grandmaster

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    I think that, like many people I have met, my Bob doesn't have a brain. Therefore even the most technically perfect strike I deliver won't give me a KO. ;)
     

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