WTF is this

[Kong Soo Do]

what makes you think standards in this one big org would be more enforced than Kukkiwon standards? It isn't physically possible, there will always be crappy teachers with low standards.

That is one of my points. We unfortunately will have people that put $ before ethics. We will have people that cut standards. We will have people with egos that prevent them from doing what is best for the art. Universal standards aren't possible. The KKW is a good example of this, though they are by no means the only example. Therefore belts aren't universal either. If we're all totally honest, belts can have meaning in a school but are really pretty useless in the big picture. That's just my humble opinion.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I don't pay any membership fee to the KKW or any other org. The KKW charges less than $100 to register a 1st Dan, any other fees are up to the person performing the grading. So, yes, it certainly would be different.
How much do you charge for a 1st Dan test in your club?

Your question wasn't directed at me, but I'd like to toss in my response if I may. I don't charge testing fees at any level, including Dan testing. The IKSDA doesn't charge anything either except the actual cost of the cert and S&H...about $5 if I remember correctly. At least that is what is listed on the website. In all honesty, I don't think that has even been charged yet.

 

[ETinCYQX]

That is one of my points. We unfortunately will have people that put $ before ethics. We will have people that cut standards. We will have people with egos that prevent them from doing what is best for the art. Universal standards aren't possible. The KKW is a good example of this, though they are by no means the only example. Therefore belts aren't universal either. If we're all totally honest, belts can have meaning in a school but are really pretty useless in the big picture. That's just my humble opinion.

I really only find belt ranks to be a good indicator in my own school, with guys my own age group. Other than that, not really.

 

[WaterGal]

Hmmm, grading fees. Used to be a tenner, if my memory serves. Now it is something astronomical like £13 {plus a fiver for the days training that goes along with the testing} :lol:.

Of course that is because my sensei teaches through love of the art rather than trying to make a living at it.

I mean no malice when I say that one day the TKD bubble will burst, just like all artificial inflations do {Olympic sport or not, people will get wise, in the end, to the fact that they are getting royally ripped off}.

FWIW, around here the schools that are full-time schools, not a guy teaching 2 nights a week in the community center, all charge about the same regardless of style. It's not really a rip-off, it's just that it's an expensive business. I'd love it if we could charge everybody $30/month with no testing fees, but it costs us (or will, when our full rent kicks in in April) over $5,000/month just to keep the school open. Hopefully we'll be able to make a living on it at some point, but right now we're doing it for free - the Mr and I's entire income is from part-time work we do elsewhere.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

FWIW, around here the schools that are full-time schools, not a guy teaching 2 nights a week in the community center, all charge about the same regardless of style. It's not really a rip-off, it's just that it's an expensive business. I'd love it if we could charge everybody $30/month with no testing fees, but it costs us (or will, when our full rent kicks in in April) over $5,000/month just to keep the school open. Hopefully we'll be able to make a living on it at some point, but right now we're doing it for free - the Mr and I's entire income is from part-time work we do elsewhere.

I find most schools in my area charge about the same, wheather it be olympic tkd, old school tkd, karate, wing chun etc etc. The real rip off in my area are boxing and muay thai. A tkd guy I train with just did some boxing over the holidays and joked you just about have to mortgage your house to pay the fees. It was about three times the cost of tkd, and they hit you $180 for a pair of "basic" gloves you must purchase before you start. In the grand scheme of things I certainly wouldnt say tkd over charge, not in my area anyway.

 

[WaterGal]

That is one of my points. We unfortunately will have people that put $ before ethics. We will have people that cut standards. We will have people with egos that prevent them from doing what is best for the art. Universal standards aren't possible. The KKW is a good example of this, though they are by no means the only example. Therefore belts aren't universal either. If we're all totally honest, belts can have meaning in a school but are really pretty useless in the big picture. That's just my humble opinion.

That's true. I've definitely seen all sorts of skill levels from people at different schools, KKW and otherwise.

I worked with a pair of kids at GM's school for a bit who were KKW 2nd Dans fresh from Korea, and they didn't know how to do a jump spinning heel kick - like literally had no idea how to even approach it. That's something I was expected to at least have the basics of at, IIRC, red belt. And they were pretty iffy with the Taegeuk forms. Somehow I'd imagined Korean schools were all strict and authentic because KKW is right there, but I guess there are some schools with low standards everywhere. And I won't even talk about standards of the chain TSD school in the next town, yikes.

 

[WaterGal]

I find most schools in my area charge about the same, wheather it be olympic tkd, old school tkd, karate, wing chun etc etc. The real rip off in my area are boxing and muay thai. A tkd guy I train with just did some boxing over the holidays and joked you just about have to mortgage your house to pay the fees. It was about three times the cost of tkd, and they hit you $180 for a pair of "basic" gloves you must purchase before you start. In the grand scheme of things I certainly wouldnt say tkd over charge, not in my area anyway.

$180 for a pair of gloves?! That's significantly more than what we charge for a full set of WTF sparring gear and a gym bag to put it in. Which you don't have to buy upfront. We do mark it up, but not a lot. I'd feel like a jerk charging that much.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

That's true. I've definitely seen all sorts of skill levels from people at different schools, KKW and otherwise.

I worked with a pair of kids at GM's school for a bit who were KKW 2nd Dans fresh from Korea, and they didn't know how to do a jump spinning heel kick - like literally had no idea how to even approach it. That's something I was expected to at least have the basics of at, IIRC, red belt. And they were pretty iffy with the Taegeuk forms. Somehow I'd imagined Korean schools were all strict and authentic because KKW is right there, but I guess there are some schools with low standards everywhere. And I won't even talk about standards of the chain TSD school in the next town, yikes.

Unfortunately this is a stereotype some in TKD try to insist is true. Like all Chinese people are Kung Fu experts etc. It simply isn't true. This is why I have been vocal in my opinion that the KKW's numbers are highly inflated and virtually meaningless. First, you have Korean kids get a Dan in a year but the quality isn't always there as you've mentioned. And you aren't the only one to comment on it, my instructor had to teach a Korean that didn't know jack. Personal instructor for six months and then the guy disappears and shows up later as a 4th Dan Master. It was a backroom promotion so the guy could open his own school and pay revenue to the home school. The guy was maybe a blue belt in time, experience and knowledge. Not to poo-poo the KKW, and I know I'm not shy about pointing their deficencies out, but I've had KKW black belts come to me for training that quite frankly would not have passed my yellow belt test. Secondly are the instructors that pass out KKW Dan certs to those unqualified just to get the numbers up. As I've said before, quantity over quality. So when someone tosses out the millions of Dan holders in Korea (the vast bulk of which is inside Korea) I shake my head. It is a paper tiger and nothing more. Now, that isn't to slam every KKW Dan holder nor am I trying to flame anyone. A KKW Dan is like any other Dan in that if they've worked really hard, have the experience, can walk the walk then wonderful. But the organization itself could fall off the planet and I think TKD would take a huge leap forward in credibility. Just my opinion and again, no offense to the hard working KKW members that have put sweat equity into their training.

 

[Markku P]

Personal instructor for six months and then the guy disappears and shows up later as a 4th Dan Master.

Well..My first teacher brought his brother from Korea ( 1987 ) and he told he is 5th dan black belt. The problem was I met him in Korea two year earlier and he told me that he haven't train Taekwondo since his military service where he got his first dan. 3 years later (1990) He has "grandmaster" and founder of his new korean Martial arts.

 

[WaterGal]

Unfortunately this is a stereotype some in TKD try to insist is true. Like all Chinese people are Kung Fu experts etc. It simply isn't true. This is why I have been vocal in my opinion that the KKW's numbers are highly inflated and virtually meaningless. First, you have Korean kids get a Dan in a year but the quality isn't always there as you've mentioned. And you aren't the only one to comment on it, my instructor had to teach a Korean that didn't know jack. Personal instructor for six months and then the guy disappears and shows up later as a 4th Dan Master. It was a backroom promotion so the guy could open his own school and pay revenue to the home school. The guy was maybe a blue belt in time, experience and knowledge. Not to poo-poo the KKW, and I know I'm not shy about pointing their deficencies out, but I've had KKW black belts come to me for training that quite frankly would not have passed my yellow belt test. Secondly are the instructors that pass out KKW Dan certs to those unqualified just to get the numbers up. As I've said before, quantity over quality. So when someone tosses out the millions of Dan holders in Korea (the vast bulk of which is inside Korea) I shake my head. It is a paper tiger and nothing more. Now, that isn't to slam every KKW Dan holder nor am I trying to flame anyone. A KKW Dan is like any other Dan in that if they've worked really hard, have the experience, can walk the walk then wonderful. But the organization itself could fall off the planet and I think TKD would take a huge leap forward in credibility. Just my opinion and again, no offense to the hard working KKW members that have put sweat equity into their training.

Eh, I don't know. I don't think any huge international organization like that would be able to make sure every member is good. I think KKW's value is in providing a standard baseline curriculum, and the WTF's in providing a standard sparring rule set, so that we're all at least generally on the same page. Beyond that, it's up to the school, the teacher and the student. Which would still be the case if a school was independent.

I also feel like if another school has low standards and gives out belts to people who aren't any good, they're doing a disservice to their students and themselves. But it doesn't have anything to do with me, or my school, or "the martial arts community". People can come to our school and see 8-year old yellow belts doing jump kicks and breaking 1" boards with an elbow strike, and go to their school and see red belts kicking a plastic sheet with a hook kick (I saw a demo that TSD school did... yeah), and make their own judgement.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Eh, I don't know. I don't think any huge international organization like that would be able to make sure every member is good. I think KKW's value is in providing a standard baseline curriculum, and the WTF's in providing a standard sparring rule set, so that we're all at least generally on the same page. Beyond that, it's up to the school, the teacher and the student. Which would still be the case if a school was independent.

I also feel like if another school has low standards and gives out belts to people who aren't any good, they're doing a disservice to their students and themselves. But it doesn't have anything to do with me, or my school, or "the martial arts community". People can come to our school and see 8-year old yellow belts doing jump kicks and breaking 1" boards with an elbow strike, and go to their school and see red belts kicking a plastic sheet with a hook kick (I saw a demo that TSD school did... yeah), and make their own judgement.

This has been said many times over the years. I happen to agree.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Eh, I don't know. I don't think any huge international organization like that would be able to make sure every member is good. I think KKW's value is in providing a standard baseline curriculum, and the WTF's in providing a standard sparring rule set, so that we're all at least generally on the same page. Beyond that, it's up to the school, the teacher and the student. Which would still be the case if a school was independent.

I also feel like if another school has low standards and gives out belts to people who aren't any good, they're doing a disservice to their students and themselves. But it doesn't have anything to do with me, or my school, or "the martial arts community". People can come to our school and see 8-year old yellow belts doing jump kicks and breaking 1" boards with an elbow strike, and go to their school and see red belts kicking a plastic sheet with a hook kick (I saw a demo that TSD school did... yeah), and make their own judgement.

If the Kkw are happy to let below par clubs use the Kkw branding, potentially damaging their reputation, then that's their choice and I'm cool with that. It's certainly not how I'd run an organisation though.

 

[Dirty Dog]

If the Kkw are happy to let below par clubs use the Kkw branding, potentially damaging their reputation, then that's their choice and I'm cool with that. It's certainly not how I'd run an organisation though.

I think we're all interested in hearing a better, practical plan. Do you know of one?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Self-policing would be a good start. If an instructor is known to be passing out KKW rank like candy to unqualified people then it should be reported. Shady dealings should be investigated. Providing it isn't falling on deaf ears? Otherwise it gives the perception that its all about the greenbacks.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Self-policing would be a good start. If an instructor is known to be passing out KKW rank like candy to unqualified people then it should be reported. Shady dealings should be investigated. Providing it isn't falling on deaf ears? Otherwise it gives the perception that its all about the greenbacks.

Except that it is accepted KKW policy, as part of the Borg...errr...assimilation program, to give rank to practitioners of other styles.

There's only three practical options.

The KKW can charge high fees and start going around to schools and taking belts off people.
or
The KKW can offer guidelines (more accurate than pretending that their curriculum is mandatory) and be a resource and maintain a database of dan ranks from practitioners from any style that want to register.
or
The KKW can continue as is, which is really very close to the above, while paying lip service to standards that really are no such thing.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

the problem is that kkw td is now a brand to most people, like apple, or mcdonalds etc. You constantly hear people ask the question - "im thinking of doing kkw tkd, is it any good?" or "how does kkw tkd go in a real fight etc?". It is unfair to the guys running good reputable schools to have their "brand" of tkd dragged through the mud because of the dodgy guy up the road who also teaches "kkw tkd". As kong soo do said, maybe reporting the guys handing out rank like candy would be a good start.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Self-policing would be a good start. If an instructor is known to be passing out KKW rank like candy to unqualified people then it should be reported. Shady dealings should be investigated. Providing it isn't falling on deaf ears? Otherwise it gives the perception that its all about the greenbacks.

thats the problem. The kkw are much more concerned with having huge membership than anything else. If my GM contacted the kkw and said he has four thousand students who dont know any kkw curriculum but he wants us all to join the kkw, I reckon they'd be emailing the application forms to him before he even had a chance to hang up the phone. Their number one objective is assimilation. You cant help but think "tkd" is a distant second in their list of priorites.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Except that it is accepted KKW policy, as part of the Borg...errr...assimilation program, to give rank to practitioners of other styles.

:lol: "You will be assimilated!"

There's only three practical options.

The KKW can charge high fees and start going around to schools and taking belts off people.
or
The KKW can offer guidelines (more accurate than pretending that their curriculum is mandatory) and be a resource and maintain a database of dan ranks from practitioners from any style that want to register.

Honestly, the KKW wouldn't have to charge fees that are higher than they are now, I don't think, unless you're saying that the higher fees would kind of naturally weed out people who are unqualified since it would be a higher investment than they would want to pay to get rank. This, I think, wouldn't be much of a deterent since I know some people who have paid some pretty high prices to get the rank they "deserved," even if they didn't know the system in which they were being ranked.

As for demoting people, that's problematic. I don't know if the KKW as any sort of guidelines about that (I know the ITF does in theory, though I only know of one person who has been demoted and that was some time ago). Even if they did the prevaling attitude in the west, at least in the U.S., is "who are [fill inthe blank] to tell me I'm not qualified to teach/be a 5th dan/whatever." In the ITF you cannot promote black belts unless you're a certified International Instructor. That is at least a medium level of quality control. It's my understanding that the KKW doesn't require any sort of credentialing apart from being a 4th dan for people to promote students (outside of Korea). There's no requirement to standardize your techniques with those of the organization so when you're promoting your students there's no motivation to have them conform to technical standards.

or
The KKW can continue as is, which is really very close to the above, while paying lip service to standards that really are no such thing.

This seems most likely since, as an outsider, I see very little indication that the KKW is interested in shoring up standards. Not none, just very little. They could well be working on upping standards but just don't publisize that fact to the wider martial arts commuity.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Dirty Dog]

:lol: "You will be assimilated!"

I have KKW Dan rank, so I guess I have... sort of...
I actually do know the KKW curriculum, though my personal preference remains training with the Chang Hon Tul. That may well be simply because that was my earliest training, but nonetheless I prefer them.

Honestly, the KKW wouldn't have to charge fees that are higher than they are now, I don't think, unless you're saying that the higher fees would kind of naturally weed out people who are unqualified since it would be a higher investment than they would want to pay to get rank. This, I think, wouldn't be much of a deterent since I know some people who have paid some pretty high prices to get the rank they "deserved," even if they didn't know the system in which they were being ranked.

In order to enforce standards, the KKW would need a staff of people who regularly travel between the KKW and the various schools issuing KKW rank. They would need to supervise Dan gradings. You'd get a lot of frequent flyer miles, but it would still be costly.

As for demoting people, that's problematic. I don't know if the KKW as any sort of guidelines about that (I know the ITF does in theory, though I only know of one person who has been demoted and that was some time ago). Even if they did the prevaling attitude in the west, at least in the U.S., is "who are [fill inthe blank] to tell me I'm not qualified to teach/be a 5th dan/whatever."

And therein lies the problem. Any attempt at enforcing standards from on high would result in schools telling the KKW to go stuff themselves and either joining another org or forming their own. Look at all the schools now that, despite their KKW affiliation, issue in-house Dan ranks to their baby black belts so they can wear a real BB instead of a poom belt.

In the ITF you cannot promote black belts unless you're a certified International Instructor. That is at least a medium level of quality control. It's my understanding that the KKW doesn't require any sort of credentialing apart from being a 4th dan for people to promote students (outside of Korea). There's no requirement to standardize your techniques with those of the organization so when you're promoting your students there's no motivation to have them conform to technical standards.

What is required to obtain and retain that certification?

 

[ralphmcpherson]

:lol: "You will be assimilated!"



Honestly, the KKW wouldn't have to charge fees that are higher than they are now, I don't think, unless you're saying that the higher fees would kind of naturally weed out people who are unqualified since it would be a higher investment than they would want to pay to get rank. This, I think, wouldn't be much of a deterent since I know some people who have paid some pretty high prices to get the rank they "deserved," even if they didn't know the system in which they were being ranked.

As for demoting people, that's problematic. I don't know if the KKW as any sort of guidelines about that (I know the ITF does in theory, though I only know of one person who has been demoted and that was some time ago). Even if they did the prevaling attitude in the west, at least in the U.S., is "who are [fill inthe blank] to tell me I'm not qualified to teach/be a 5th dan/whatever." In the ITF you cannot promote black belts unless you're a certified International Instructor. That is at least a medium level of quality control. It's my understanding that the KKW doesn't require any sort of credentialing apart from being a 4th dan for people to promote students (outside of Korea). There's no requirement to standardize your techniques with those of the organization so when you're promoting your students there's no motivation to have them conform to technical standards.



This seems most likely since, as an outsider, I see very little indication that the KKW is interested in shoring up standards. Not none, just very little. They could well be working on upping standards but just don't publisize that fact to the wider martial arts commuity.

Pax,

Chris

I wasn't aware the ITF did it that way. That makes a lot more sense. I really can't see how it would be costly to put something like that in place and it ads a lot more credibility.