Wonderings????

[Hand Sword]

Lately, I've been receiving mental reflections about an on going theme, seemingly in almost all of the styles and systems. The topic is about "frauds." This includes people, styles, schools, and systems--all aspects. When I review it all in my mind some thoughts seem to bubble out to the surface. Not being a heavy physical practitioner in some time, this seems to be a new thing for me- a thinker-lol. However, rather than bore everyone with my own pyscho babble, for the sake of everything normal, I'll narrow it all down to a thought for discussion.

As far as the Martial arts are concerned, what or who is a fraud? Now, I'm sure may answers could (and would come if we were a more open forum-lol) about individuals, organizations, schools, etc..., and the bickering would get nasty. But that is also the point that I am getting at. Why the bickering and nastiness? From my lofty perch, I see it is more about one's politics, or business ethics (or lack of there of) and not about a system or style. Many times through the years I have heard MANY say he or she is no good, all that is taught is BS, etc... When asked to further elaborate, it seems to go to how the person in charge acted in the realm of socialization and not the actual material.

Considering this thought, look at the material from "legit" to "fraud" to "McDojo" on and on. How different is it all? What makes one group"s front punch more real, less real, more legit than the others? Getting to the basics of it all, for me, I see a human being from each group, standing in the same stances, and throwing the same strike. With an absence of patches and just taken for its worth in a vacuum, if you were standing there could you tell the difference? Without "nitpicking" the details, it's all the same.

So, if all the strikes, stances, kicks, etc..., are more or less the same what's the arguing about? Why the hatred? (from a practitioner perspective) If we all met in a park and noticed each practicing separately would there be that animosity? More friendliness? I would think so. I think the issue is about politics. We get rapped up in it and indoctrinated.

So, what is the overall point of my incoherent ramble? (thanks for putting up with it) I guess, I'm just spouting off about supposed "Frauds." For me, the arts have traveled through time and space and through many successive generations. Each and every time they have been altered to fit the needs of individuals. However, somewhere in the recent past this was done and it all became the "gospel." Any elaborating or changing (updating) the styles led to nastiness. Why? It's not anything that wasn't the norm up to that point. Why is someone or whatever a "fraud?" Aside from element of money and business (a whole 'nother thread and argument!), where is it? We are all just practitioners trying to learn it and do the best that we can. My front punch is no more "purer" than yours and yours no more than mine. Same with kicks, stances, and everything else. There could be more polishing and athletic abilities, but, is that a defining point? Is someone less athletic or weaker, less of a practitioner? Is it gender? Size? Ethnicity?

I dunno about it all. I've been a lost soul for a while now and I'm trying to regather up and make sense of everything and get to what is reality. In the end, if you want to practice, go through the effort of doing so, spend the time, blood, sweat and tears, and are happy with your training environment, isn't that the key to it all? For anything? (work, school, neighborhood, etc..)

Can anyone else elaborate? In the Martial Arts, what is a "fraud?" (Person, style, org., etc..)

 

[Cirdan]

Fraud:

Don`t tell me his stance is more or less the same as a real teacher`s.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Fraud:

Don`t tell me his stance is more or less the same as a real teacher`s.

He must be a fraud, he looks too similar to the guy from 'fist foot way'.

 

[seasoned]

I would definitely consider their motivation, and also hope they would be adhering to standard principles pertaining to their specific art. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck, then, I would consider them a duck.
Problem is....................

 

[Chris Parker]

In terms of an individual/instructor, simply whether or not their background is fabricated. If, say, Ashida Kim was to say "This is something I came up with after attending two classes and watching a Bruce Lee film, then reading some comics", that, to me, would not be fraudulant.

In terms of a system, does it live up to it's expected traits? If you get an "ancient Japanese battlefield art" which teaches spinning crescent kicks and roundhouse kicks, or an old Japanese system where the main weapons are Sai, Nunchaku, Three-Sectional Staff, and a Western Archery Bow, then that's again a fraudulant system. But again, if the teacher says "We have integrated these aspects of other systems, or other weapons from other systems into our established system", provided that initial system passes muster, then that's fine. For example, we have a thread here on someone who purchased Nunchaku, and it turns out he trains in Hapkido. And in that class they use a number of Okinawan weapons. That could very easily be a legit art (Hapkido) which has added to itself.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

Frauds would include:

1. Students who overrepresent their level of training
2. Teachers who fabricate rank, qualifications or experience
3. Teachers who claim to teach arts they're not highly qualified to teach
4. School owners who develop programs for the sole purpose of making money
5. Students and teachers who spend more time looking for frauds than improving their own understanding and technique

 

[Carol]

Fraud to me is a strong term, and not one that I would use lightly. I tend to save "fraud" for the more egregious offenses.

To me a fraud would include...

A school and/or instructor that will not keep a commitment to a great class for all students. That could include anything from schools that cook their own books to schools that don't bother keeping control on the mat. Oh, the 15 year old brown belt with anger issues just tossed a yellow belt that's 70 pounds lighter in to a wall? No excuse for that.

A person that significantly represents who they are. Including their name, their qualifications or rank, their history, academic, or professional title, etc.

 

[geezer]

So, if all the strikes, stances, kicks, etc..., are more or less the same what's the arguing about? Why the hatred? (from a practitioner perspective) If we all met in a park and noticed each practicing separately would there be that animosity? More friendliness? I would think so. I think the issue is about politics. We get rapped up in it and indoctrinated.

Fraud... I suppose that means a phoney scamming his or her students, claiming knowledge they don't have, pretending to teach what they don't know, and taking their student's money without giving in return the skills or "product" they've promised. There are many kinds and degrees of frauds in the martial arts. Carol and others have covered that already. And from my perspective, there is no justification for that kind of behavior.

Now none of this has anything to do with a "McDojo". There's one of those a few blocks from my home. They are "guilty" of all the McDojo "sins". They focus on kids, have a big, commercialized program that teaches what most serious adult practitioners would consider a "watered down" kiddie program that is little more than "martial dance for boys (and girls)" with a zillion belts and ranks, "competitions" in which practically every child carries home giant plastic trophy, sometimes taller than they are, and belt tests (with accompanying fees) every month. This place does it all. Promos at your gradeschool? You bet. Birthday parties? Of course. "Parent's Night Out" (group baby sitting)? Sure thing. Kiddie Black Belt Program? Sign 'em up NOW! In other words, the total McDojo... But hang on a moment. They are not frauds. They advertise a really fun youth program, something to get kids off the computer games and give them wholesome, supervised physical activity, along with teaching some discipline and respect, some skills, and some good wholesome values. And they deliver what they promise. Let me elaborate. I was over at a neighbor's house a couple of weeks back, they are the parents of one of my son's friends. It turns out that their son has been a student at that McDojo for going on a year now. And they love it! And, ...get this. They thanked me. Apparently their son got interested in joining this school after watching me train in my backyard a year or so ago. But of course most kids at that age aren't really interested in hard, old school training with a bunch of old men in garages, and back yards, so he channeled his interest into joining this commercial neighborhood school and he's loving it. As much as I may rail against "McDojos" and their 12 year old black belts lowering standards and cheapening the image of martial arts... this is not a "fraud". That family is getting exactly what they want and having a wonderful time. I say "great!" It's a free country, right?

Now, back to the quote above. It's not correct to say that, "...strikes, stances, kicks, etc...," in the martial arts are more or less the same. My core art is Ving Tsun (Wing Chun), and the way we stand, strike, and defend is very, very different from, say TKD, Karate, boxing, and even most other Chinese martial arts. I also practice Eskrima. The empty hands in my eskrima system are more in line with boxing than WC. But even within the Filipino martial arts you will see very different ways of doing things. I know of one FMA instructor who's comments about certain other FMAs boils down to this, "If somebody tries that stuff on one of my guys, they'd get killed!" And he's not exaggerating much. My point is that there are huge differences in the way different martial arts do things, and those differences do matter.

That said, I totally agree with the second part of your quote about putting politics aside and respecting each other. As far as your statement about what would happen if we all met in a park goes... We actually do that. Twice a year a a friend of mine organizes a big FMA "Gathering" at a city park and all kinds of martial artists from all over our metro area get together for a potluck lunch, to do demos, free workshops, to practice together, to exchange techniques and tell stories... we've been doing this for several years now and it's always a great experience.

 

[jks9199]

Fraud is misrepresentation. Claiming or inventing rank you never earned or expertise based on a weekend certification by attendance only (not testing), taking money for things you cannot teach... those are frauds. Charging weekly testing fees, having 43 belts in your school, running kiddie programs... all of that is not fraudulent. It may be commercial, but if they're telling people what they'll get, and delivering it, then they're getting what they're paying for. It's up to the to decide if they're satisfied or not.

Politics and the rest? You've got that anytime you've a group of people and some sort of organization. Even if you walked into a park, and saw 10 people practicing individually, and all happily came together to train -- they'd have politics. Maybe it'd be kickers aligning against punchers, or lefties versus righties... but there'd be "politics." Whether the politics cripple the training is up to the individuals.

 

[harlan]

To the OP in response to 'why the hate?'

Because plenty of people put in the time and the sweat to actually make the claim that they 'trained in XXX style' - and highly resent an imposter siphoning off potential students (next generation) and misrepresenting a style.

Not talking about someone that makes up their own style, but the ones that insinuate or out and out lie about their credentials.