Wing Chun's Weakness

[ModernVisage]

Nothing else to say other than that. What would the experts in this martial art have to say about this simple style and its weaknesses. If you're wondering I am so cross trained I wouldn't say that I have a style other than my own but could always use more instruction. My guess is the ability to trade blows or grapple or their belief that their grace will protect them from any volley (or that wheel punches can knock someone out even if they do not condition their bodies or regularly practice).

 

[mook jong man]

Nothing else to say other than that. What would the experts in this martial art have to say about this simple style and its weaknesses. If you're wondering I am so cross trained I wouldn't say that I have a style other than my own but could always use more instruction. My guess is the ability to trade blows or grapple or their belief that their grace will protect them from any volley (or that wheel punches can knock someone out even if they do not condition their bodies or regularly practice).

As with other martial arts the weakness is only in the individual practitioner and their training methods, I can do Wing Chun , I can take a hit , only just yesterday I got cracked in the eye socket and it didn't stop me , hurt like a bastard , but it did not stop me.

I can also ground fight , use a stick - single or double grip method or use a knife.
It's up to the individual how much they are willing to push the envelope in training realistically , It's not everybodies cup of tea and I can understand that.

Chi Sau can be as gentle or as brutal as the two partners want to make it , but if you never experience the hard contact then you are going to be in for a bit of a shock.

 

[Nabakatsu]

I believe fully that a person who doesn't practice much and isn't very strong can render an opponent unable to continue attacking with a few well placed chain punches to the throat is they are using decent mechanics.
That aside.. I believe we should train just as hard as anyone, it's up to us as individuals to make this art work for us, or anything.

 

[bully]

Agree with the sentiments of MJM, it's the practitioner which is the weakness of any style.

A lot of CMA is guilty of not enough sparring/pressure testing, Wing Chun included. You could say that some Karate/Kickboxing etc etc schools are like this too.

I would say Muay Thai isn't as guilty of this as other arts.

Just my 2 cents (pence if you're a Brit)

 

[seasoned]

This is true with any art, you only get out of it what you are willing to put into it.

 

[WC_lun]

Nothing else to say other than that. What would the experts in this martial art have to say about this simple style and its weaknesses. If you're wondering I am so cross trained I wouldn't say that I have a style other than my own but could always use more instruction. My guess is the ability to trade blows or grapple or their belief that their grace will protect them from any volley (or that wheel punches can knock someone out even if they do not condition their bodies or regularly practice).

All I can say is that the Wing Chun you are talking about is not the Wing Chun I am familiar with.

 

[ModernVisage]

My knowledge of most martial arts is very general because I am young but I was wondering this because if someone focused on a specific martial art this would be a great one to begin with for its practicality. There are always factors to consider such as the instructor and training method. Thanks for the comments. I am also looking for some good demo videos for WC if you have examples.

 

[Cyriacus]

Im not sure of the exact wording, but;
Trapping and Volleying isnt as effective as its made out to be, despite how efficient the speed makes it look. If even one hit were to connect, it would at least make the target recoil back. But this isnt a weakness in Trapping and Volleying (I think Chain Punching is a better word. Or something). Its a weakness in that from what Ive seen at alot of Wing Chun places, They dont teach that strikes have an impact that changes things. They dont teach changing to something more effective after 1-3 of those fast, not-exactly-finishing hits connect; And instead focus on doing 10-20, then exiting out, or doing something that assumes they remained stationary.

So, more or less like the others said, but with My own extention.

Its how You learn it, and how its Taught to You.

 

[mook jong man]

In our lineage we call it "Continuous Punch" not chain punch.
although we do have something called chain kicking , a rapid barrage of three low kicks combined with hand trapping.

In regards to the head moving when it is struck that is true , but the funny thing about humans is that they don't like being hit in the face so they tend to try and block and hold their arms in front of their head to try and fend off the blows , usually with a lot of tension in their arms.

This plays right into the Wing Chun practitioners hands , because now he has a handle to grab and actually pull you into his strikes and increase their effectiveness.

By it's very definition trapping range is close and involves immobilization of one or both of the opponents arms as they are being hit.
So his head or body is not really going anywhere because one or both of his arms are under control.

Most of what people would see on video around the place is just straight chain punching , but if any resistance is shown then chain punching can be combined with wrist latching , this is a hook like motion of the hand on the return phase of the punch as the other punch is going forward.

In effect it is dragging the opponent into the punch by hooking on to his arm, this can be done continuously until the opponent drops.

These techniques are combined with the constant pressure exerted from the stance moving forward , the feeling of wanting to go straight through the opponent like a laser beam.

So yes the opponent does move but it is usually backwards and off balance in an attempt to ward off the strikes as the Wing Chun guy moves forward attacking his center of balance and sticking to him like glue.

 

[Cyriacus]

In our lineage we call it "Continuous Punch" not chain punch.
although we do have something called chain kicking , a rapid barrage of three low kicks combined with hand trapping.

Good to know, thanks.

In regards to the head moving when it is struck that is true , but the funny thing about humans is that they don't like being hit in the face so they tend to try and block and hold their arms in front of their head to try and fend off the blows , usually with a lot of tension in their arms.

Of course.

This plays right into the Wing Chun practitioners hands , because now he has a handle to grab and actually pull you into his strikes and increase their effectiveness.

And thats exactly My Point. That should be taught in and of itself. Ive seen places completely ignore changing from one approach to another - But plenty more that cover it swell.

By it's very definition trapping range is close and involves immobilization of one or both of the opponents arms as they are being hit.
So his head or body is not really going anywhere because one or both of his arms are under control.

Yep. Its similar to one of Our Solutions for someone confronting You in any Stance with an extended Arm. Grab it.

Most of what people would see on video around the place is just straight chain punching , but if any resistance is shown then chain punching can be combined with wrist latching , this is a hook like motion of the hand on the return phase of the punch as the other punch is going forward.

And thats what I like to see.

In effect it is dragging the opponent into the punch by hooking on to his arm, this can be done continuously until the opponent drops.

I know

These techniques are combined with the constant pressure exerted from the stance moving forward , the feeling of wanting to go straight through the opponent like a laser beam.

So yes the opponent does move but it is usually backwards and off balance in an attempt to ward off the strikes as the Wing Chun guy moves forward attacking his center of balance and sticking to him like glue.

Which is how it should generally be.

*nods

 

[mook jong man]

Just to be clear , it is not what would normally considered by most people to be a grab.
You don't physically grab the arm using the thumb , this is much too slow and inefficient.
It also takes too much time to disengage from the arm in case I have to use that hand to defend.

It's basically just a very relaxed draping of the hand over the opponents arm and using what we call "elbow force" to pull the arm down and in towards us at a 45 degree angle , it serves the purpose of clearing the obstacle away for striking and affecting the opponents balance simultaneously.
Wing Chun people call it the Fook Sau.

You can also use just a cutting down movement of the arm using shearing elbow force but this offers a bit less control than wrist latching.

 

[Domino]

I know we different but sifu says like a wet cloth MJM

Not having a 'style' is better and try to stay open minded with the shapes.
Yeah you totally get out of it what you put in as Mook Jong man said. Also, do a bit of your own research.
While I like the structures, the exercising and forms of training, not all tools are applicable sometimes imo (intemediate level) so I am still sort of finding my own way with shapes for a very realistic situation.

 

[ilhe4e12345]

i was always under the impression that its not the style its the skill of the person....i have had jobs in the past working as a bouncer (at a strip club for a few years) and have been training multiple styles of martial arts (7 Star Praying Mantis, Xingyi, Wing Chun, Long Fist 1) and know many martial artists.....and its not the style that dictates what they can do, but their own personal ability. I am good friends with three people that i have been training with for years now. 2 of them have been boxing since they were young (one guy has been training for about 12 years another for 8 or so) and a good friend that I have worked with as a bouncer has been training TKD for 10 years. I can tell you just from person sparring with them that its not the style.....

boxing is very basic compared to CMA (just as an example) and even though I know trapping and grabbing from my mantis and WC they are able to get out of it very quickly or know what to look for. My friend who trains TKD also is able to use his style to his full advantage against ANY other style of fighter. This being said WC can be good against any other style depending on the person and how they train themselves. I will never be an "ulitmate fighter" but am i confident that in a street fight or dangerous encounter that ill be able to use what i know in WC to protect and defend myself? Yes as a matter of fact WC has saved me for a rather dangerous bar encounter (inside gate block, strike to throat) stopped the guy cold in his tracks and gave me enough time to get out of there....and thats just basics

I only know SLT and the basics of WC. Just starting the footwork and sparring more and more with WC rather then mantis but with the little I know in WC, i dont see how someone who puts a lot into their training cant be good against another style.

 

[ModernVisage]

All of you guys have great posts including the ability to utilize many systems and styles strong points (thus how it was made through the selection). I've always fancied the way I'm starting to notice its influences from bagua, xingyi, and many other styles.
@
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/member.php?25430-ilhe4e12345ilhe4e12345 good to hear you've been in a conflict. I was drunk once and being a dumbass with one of my friends and ended up getting in a drunken boxing match with him where he used wing chun vs my sloppy drunken style and (at this point blacked out of memory) [first time I drank for months] ended up getting a nice wallop on the chin but otherwise noticed no damage on me.

Mantis sounds like a great mix with wing chun. Plucking is a subject of interest for me. Does this belongs in another thread but would Xingyi and Mantis be a good mix? Recently I've been getting into JKD and Xingyi... More later. BRB

 

[Cyriacus]

i was always under the impression that its not the style its the skill of the person....

Its 50/50 between the Skill of the Person and the Quality of Instruction. Lets never just numb it down to the person.

i have had jobs in the past working as a bouncer (at a strip club for a few years) and have been training multiple styles of martial arts (7 Star Praying Mantis, Xingyi, Wing Chun, Long Fist 1) and know many martial artists.....and its not the style that dictates what they can do, but their own personal ability. I am good friends with three people that i have been training with for years now. 2 of them have been boxing since they were young (one guy has been training for about 12 years another for 8 or so) and a good friend that I have worked with as a bouncer has been training TKD for 10 years. I can tell you just from person sparring with them that its not the style.....

It is how the style is taught, and how good at it the Person is. So kinda, yeah.

boxing is very basic compared to CMA (just as an example) and even though I know trapping and grabbing from my mantis and WC they are able to get out of it very quickly or know what to look for. My friend who trains TKD also is able to use his style to his full advantage against ANY other style of fighter. This being said WC can be good against any other style depending on the person and how they train themselves. I will never be an "ulitmate fighter" but am i confident that in a street fight or dangerous encounter that ill be able to use what i know in WC to protect and defend myself? Yes as a matter of fact WC has saved me for a rather dangerous bar encounter (inside gate block, strike to throat) stopped the guy cold in his tracks and gave me enough time to get out of there....and thats just basics

I only know SLT and the basics of WC. Just starting the footwork and sparring more and more with WC rather then mantis but with the little I know in WC, i dont see how someone who puts a lot into their training cant be good against another style.

*nods

 

[WingChunIan]

biggest weakness in Wing Chun is it's sheer popularity and focus on street application rather than sport (which is also a strength). This combination has meant taht Wing Chun has more than it's fair share of sub standard instructors, many of whom lack real instruction, but who get away with passing off what they do. This self fulfilling cycle has continued since the kung fu boom of the seventies and is the same as was seen in karate, only because of the lack of competition it is far easier to hide in Wing Chun than in other arts. When taught well and legitimately Wing Chun's effectiveness is only limited by the practitioner and the way that it's trained as stated above.

 

[Vajramusti]

biggest weakness in Wing Chun is it's sheer popularity and focus on street application rather than sport (which is also a strength). This combination has meant taht Wing Chun has more than it's fair share of sub standard instructors, many of whom lack real instruction, but who get away with passing off what they do. This self fulfilling cycle has continued since the kung fu boom of the seventies and is the same as was seen in karate, only because of the lack of competition it is far easier to hide in Wing Chun than in other arts. When taught well and legitimately Wing Chun's effectiveness is only limited by the practitioner and the way that it's trained as stated above.

-----------------------------------------------

True.

joy chaudhuri

 

[geezer]

Mantis sounds like a great mix with wing chun. Plucking is a subject of interest for me ...would Xingyi and Mantis be a good mix? Recently I've been getting into JKD and Xingyi... BRB

I would not recommend mixing WC with other arts. First get your WC basics down cold. Then if you want to branch out, choose an art that focuses on a different area or range... something that meshes rather than mixes, if you get my drift. WC is a very tightly integrated system. To mix in other stuff is like bolting chrome garbage from the auto-accessory store onto a Porsche. You'll just mess it up. Even adding good stuff from somewhere else is a bad idea. You wouldn't put Beemer or Mercedes parts in your Porsche either. So if you want to dabble, find something totally separate.

For example, I complement my WC with Escrima. Not because I feel WC needs more, but just because I like Escrima. Through Escrima, I get an additional perspective on stick, blade, and improvised weaponry, as well as dumog or grappling and groundfighting. But I do not mix my Escrima and WC. When I'm in close, fighting with empty hands, it's pure WC. Now, it's true that our Escrima teaches empty hand fighting too, and our Escrima empty hands have a strong boxing influence. But I don't box. I use that training primarily to, as Sun Tzu famously said, "To know my enemy and myself" and apply my WC more effectively.

 

[simplewc101]

mantis is a very effective combination with wing chun, and it goes without saying chin na can be incorporated beautifully as well.
to answer OP's question, wing chun's only weakness is students that don't practice enough

 

[Jason Striker II]

Many good comments have already been made here, but let me just add this.

The strength of a "style" is simultaneously its weakness. In WC, the strong points are the straight-line attack and trapping. Ergo, if an opponent can either stay outside via kicking, or shut this down inside via grappling, the "style" breaks down.

All MA people today know that it's impossible for anyone to master all phases of fighting (kicking, striking, trapping, grappling, and weapons), and that all you can really do is to specialize in an area you feel comfortable with (i.e. learn a "style"), and yet still have some competency in ALL the other areas because - all the variables of self-defense (i.e. the what, who, where, when, why) are largely unforeseeable. (Far more important for self-defense than any "style" or "technique" is simply constant awareness!)

Also, last note, although I have limited training in WC, I would recommend the books/vids put out by Randy Williams; IMO, his working of that system is the most logical and well-rounded.