Wing Chun's Weakness

[Eric_H]

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Your second sentence highlights your opinion based on what you have apparently seen. My opinion is different based on what i know and have seen When a sound wing chun structure is developed it need not abandon you whether you are vertical, horizontal or in some other position.

I dont do Garrett Gee wing chun or Lowenhagen wing chun- so we have quite different perspectives on what we mean by wing chun. I would rather leave it at that... diversity.

With good wishes, joy chaudhuri

Joy,

Thanks for the clip, it's a trip to see those old movies!

In regards to WC structure on the ground, yes we obviously have some different ideas of what constitutes WC structure. Having done what was billed as "WC" ground fighting (13 kicks from the ground, jujitsu etc) under the Meng regime perhaps I am a little burned on it. Still, I have yet to see or experience anything from WC that is functionally capable of dealing with a wrestler once your upright structure compromised. I have seen some silly things such as people doing Siu Nim Tao lying on the floor, or trying to say it falls under Biu Gee because the structure is broken. Hopefully one day I can meet up with some of your students again and they can change my opinion or perhaps my Sifu will have some answers later on in my current system. Till then, without the hard evidence, I will maintain my opinion.

Best,

 

[Eric_H]

I never said that.

Im sure both of those Arts have some method of getting out of close range in the first place, much like how Wing Chun does have a couple (Im not sure, but I wouldnt be shocked if it were actually literally 2) of longer strikes.

You said you're not sure when a long range fight could even exist, I simply pointed out that there are many arts (IMO Hung Ga And CLF being two of the nastier ones) that emphasize that range. If that range was not possible to maintain and could not be advantageous in some way, those arts would not focus on it.

 

[Vajramusti]

Joy,

Thanks for the clip, it's a trip to see those old movies!

In regards to WC structure on the ground, yes we obviously have some different ideas of what constitutes WC structure. Having done what was billed as "WC" ground fighting (13 kicks from the ground, jujitsu etc) under the Meng regime perhaps I am a little burned on it. Still, I have yet to see or experience anything from WC that is functionally capable of dealing with a wrestler once your upright structure compromised. I have seen some silly things such as people doing Siu Nim Tao lying on the floor, or trying to say it falls under Biu Gee because the structure is broken. Hopefully one day I can meet up with some of your students again and they can change my opinion or perhaps my Sifu will have some answers later on in my current system. Till then, without the hard evidence, I will maintain my opinion.
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No problems Eric. I have no interest in changing your old or current ideas. I have not been under either umbrella.
Good wishes, joy chaudhuri

 

[Zenjael]

I don't think I would label any system simple, so I'd be careful saying those words, to whom, otherwise you might cause offensive.

Fook Sau is something I like a lot, because it lets me take a Krav Maga side elbow, and learn how to wield it both as a strike, offensively, and for defense. In essence, cross training between Wing Chun and Krav Maga allowed me to re-utilize a technique they both use in a new manner. From my understanding, though, fook Sau is fairly difficult to master; I'll be honest in saying that while the elbow allows for great control of the other's arm (making them have to fight around it) if you do lose contact things can get hairy quick.

I often think of martial art styles as modes of thoughts, philosophy of movement if you will. Each style represents a different way to fight, and to think as well. As diverse as people themselves within the same art. I remember sparring once with someone who we both knew could annihalate me, but who wasn't sure himself of my own ability. We ended up sparring in a way harder than I think I've ever had to spar, and yet the entire time I felt no frustration, no anger. It was the exactly same feeling I would get when sitting down to a chess game with someone I knew to be either my equal or better.

When I spar, I am not sure if others are like this, I can feel intentions. I cannot see well, and so I practice blindfolded sparring now and again... but after awhile there is a feeling of sublimeness which overcomes you in the ring, almost like a bliss. I remember each move of that encounter with the Tai Chi practitioner; I remember where he deliberately left himself open for me to take advantage of, and when I didn't, seeing it to be a trap, he remarked with dissapointment that I hadn't employed anything interesting to him. My only reply was why would I do something interesting, to gain the attention of a snake, and he laughed. We would fight, and after a particular hit struck or missed, either one of us might laugh. We had conversation without words, responding to each other through fists, and kicks, and occasional words. I have never felt anything like it, I hope I am not alone.

 

[yak sao]

Your post reminds me of this quote:

The fish trap exists because of the fish. Once you've gotten the fish you can forget the trap. The rabbit snare exists because of the rabbit. Once you've gotten the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words exist because of meaning. Once you've gotten the meaning, you can forget the words. Where can I find a man who has forgotten words so I can talk with him?
~Chuang Tzu

 

[mvbrown21]

.....I often think of martial art styles as modes of thoughts, philosophy of movement if you will. Each style represents a different way to fight, and to think as well. As diverse as people themselves within the same art. I remember sparring once with someone who we both knew could annihalate me, but who wasn't sure himself of my own ability. We ended up sparring in a way harder than I think I've ever had to spar, and yet the entire time I felt no frustration, no anger. It was the exactly same feeling I would get when sitting down to a chess game with someone I knew to be either my equal or better.

When I spar, I am not sure if others are like this, I can feel intentions. I cannot see well, and so I practice blindfolded sparring now and again... but after awhile there is a feeling of sublimeness which overcomes you in the ring, almost like a bliss. I remember each move of that encounter with the Tai Chi practitioner; I remember where he deliberately left himself open for me to take advantage of, and when I didn't, seeing it to be a trap, he remarked with dissapointment that I hadn't employed anything interesting to him. My only reply was why would I do something interesting, to gain the attention of a snake, and he laughed. We would fight, and after a particular hit struck or missed, either one of us might laugh. We had conversation without words, responding to each other through fists, and kicks, and occasional words. I have never felt anything like it, I hope I am not alone.

You're not alone

 

[Cyriacus]

You said you're not sure when a long range fight could even exist, I simply pointed out that there are many arts (IMO Hung Ga And CLF being two of the nastier ones) that emphasize that range. If that range was not possible to maintain and could not be advantageous in some way, those arts would not focus on it.

I realise this - Im just saying, that to My knowledge, Hung Ga, for example, also teaches getting to that Range. Wing Chun is based on getting closer, as oppose to further away. Of course an Art based on getting further away, would be full well capable of it.

 

[Zenjael]

I just realized I made a terrible error in naming the technique I had fook sau. Please apologize for my err, the utilization of your elbow like that is not fook sau, though that technique can be used both offensively and defensively. I don't like it cause the shotokan and Isshin ryu people I practice with push their punches, so if you try to block Ive seen a lot of people jam their fingers attempting it. While I haven't myself, watching the newer people yelping when they attempt it is also a lesson to me about the technique and its utilization. I haven't practiced enough Wing Chun to really have a great grasp on the system, though I understand its mechanics and know its stances and bi weekly practice a few drills. Not the same thing though as legit training in the art, but it will be helpful should I ever pick it up down the road. Way down the road. lol.