Wing CHUN Wing TSUN rivallry?

[graychuan]

The trouble was that William Cheung was going round at the time saying that he was the only one who was taught the third form 'properly' by Yip Man and that all other masters had learned it incorrectly or 'modified' it. Even to this day, Cheung students talk about 'traditional' wing chun and 'modified' wing chun. Its done in such a derogatory way that eventually someone was going to step up and ask Cheung to prove it.

I just find the whole thing funny. It just shows that if you think you are too cool for school, someone will eventually prove you wrong!

I've heard that most of tese differences have been buried, but personally I still think that most of the Cheung students come across wrong

All wing chun is 'modified' wing chun - Yip Man changed and developed the style he was taught and various masters have modified and changed it since. If they haven't they are either lying or stuck in the mud

I can agree with all this. One unfortunate thing is that at that time...WC/WT/VT was pouplar globally even more so than here in the United States. When you make claims such as his, then have your @$$ handed to you at your own seminar, it gave a general impression to NON-Chunners that the 'grandmaster of the traditional system' was fake. It made it easy to debunk anything good said about WC/VT/WT.
Kinda gave the whole art a Black- Eye. More competent masters have been on the defense of the art ,since that incident, and that was a tragedy.

 

[geezer]

When you make claims such as his, then have your @$$ handed to you at your own seminar, it gave a general impression to NON-Chunners that the 'grandmaster of the traditional system' was fake...quote]

Funny, that was the same impression I got at the time! LOL. But seriously, overblown egos and challenge fights, whether "fair" or not, are nothing new. Some such fights eventually become part of the folklore of the martial arts. What about Bruce Lee and Jack Man Wong, or the many inter-style fights involving WC and other systems in Hong Kong in the fifties and sixties, ...heck who knows what happened when that mean old lady Ng Mui and her vicious little student, Yim Wing Chun, were terrorizing young boxers in Fatshan... like that poor love smitten fellow who aked Wing Chun for a date. She clobbered the poor guy!

As far as the popularity of the art itself, I think its more the case of a fad running it's course. Way back, Ju jutsu and judo where very popular, then in the 60s Karate exploded on the scene Thank Elvis. In the 70's, after Bruce Lee, everybody was Kung Fu fighting, remember? Wing Chun/Tsun rode that wave well into the 80's. Then the FMA's got big for a while. A lot of credit goes to Bruce Lee's buddy, Dan Inosanto. What else? Ninjutsu? I blame the movie industry! Capoeira? Who knows. BJJ --well at least it's real. Then finally MMA. With its athleticism, personalities, and rough and tumble entertainment value, I think it's here to stay.

My point? The Emin Boztepe-William Cheung fight didn't hurt WC/WT/VT. We were already on the way down. Fads are like that, and thank god too. Maybe the time will come when teenagers start wearing their pants above their butts again.

 

[KamonGuy2]

It is good in a way, because it is rare to get 'wannabe's' coming into wing chun. As Master Chan says - people tend to be connoisseurs of martial arts nowadays. People roughly know what they want. They see fighting on youtube or on cagerage or through films and decide what they want for themselves

People taking up wing chun generally want an explosive martial art suited for self defence (ie we don't get many people in asking to do tournaments etc)

 

[brocklee]

It is good in a way, because it is rare to get 'wannabe's' coming into wing chun. As Master Chan says - people tend to be connoisseurs of martial arts nowadays. People roughly know what they want. They see fighting on youtube or on cagerage or through films and decide what they want for themselves

People taking up wing chun generally want an explosive martial art suited for self defence (ie we don't get many people in asking to do tournaments etc)

True! It's hard to sell something that is difficult to see or isn't flowery.

 

[naneek]

god i hope they start wearing their pants properly soon, it just looks silly

 

[Si-Je]

Poor Emin and Chung. Will they never live that down?
Chung isn't the only WC man out there. I think that this "rivalry" between WT and WC exists only with those who choose to carry it out. Like some family feud. Only, it's old and moldy now. Let it rot.

There are some pretty fundimental differences between the WT and WC styles of Wing Chun, and people have their preferences. Unfortunately, when people have preferences they tend to believe that theirs is the best for everyone.
We mix both. Both rock!

 

[dungeonworks]

What are the major differences between WC and WT? What was changed? I have only seen partial footage of Emin Boztepe instructionals and am still a begginner in Wing Chun (7 mos.). In the footage, from what I could see, I have noticed the stances apear to be more centered on the weight distribution and apear more boxing-like. What else is there? Is it of the Leung Ting branch?

 

[Si-Je]

WT tends to be way more aggressive with chain punching. Which is good.
WC more focus on deflection, chi, etc.

WT uses bong sau right away in application, takes a bit longer to polish up. And uses Tan Sau for deflection of hook punches, or just chain punches into opponent when they open up themselves for a haymaker.
WC uses dai sau until student is ready for turning dai sau into bong sau giving you more forward force with bong sau. (and is great for all kinds of hook punch defenses on its own)

WT seems to use advanced stance all the time, or more than not.
WC seems to favor basic stance most of the time.

I think Si lim tao is the same for both, but chum kui seems a bit different.
(haven't learned bui gee yet.)

WC not ground fighting, but way more emphasis on rooting in stance.
WTzun anti-grappling, WTsun "borrowed anti-grappling"
both equally important in defense against a throw, or takedown.
both take dedicated time to master and utilize properly.

WC uses more spade hand on opponent when working behind or beside attacker to bring them down for a smaller defender.
WT seems to favor the neck takedowns of a taller man. Which work for me when I throw a heel kick or spade hand to get a taller attacker to my height.

WC seems to focus more on kicking, punching, and deflecting at the same time when attacking and defending than alot of WT I've seen. But that could just be preference to the teachers and the videos they put online.


Don't know much of William Chun WC, just train from Sifu Fung WC from hubbie.

 

[dungeonworks]

Thank you for the quick and detailed answer...much appreciated!

 

[KamonGuy2]

Why are people still talking about the differences between WC and WT?

They are the same style

Wing Chun is the name of all kung fu that derives from VT, WT, WC etc.

Wing Tsun was called Wing Tsun so as not to generalise (ie how would you distinguish between Kamon wing chun and Leung Tings wing chun?). The name was created to make it stand out, comercially and for respect to Leung Tings teachers

Similarly Master Kevin Chan named his wing chun federation 'Kamon Martial Arts', despite being a wing chun school

If every federation was called 'wing chun' we wouldn't know what school was what and the slight differences that they incorperate.

It is like me asking what the differences between Shotokhan karate and karate are!!

 

[Si-Je]

Your right Kamon, it is to differiciate between different masters styles and "marketing".
But.
As much as I don't like Ling Ting, I would not want his WT to be confused with Kamon WC. His WT is good. And he doesn't use BJJ to supplement his ground defense.
So. He's not a nice guy, but his WT is pure and works well enough to defend against grappling or whatever without crosstraining too much. Thus, watering down his WT.

You have to make WC/WT your own when you become of a level enough to intrepret it enough for yourself. My hubbie's WC/WT is different than that of his two masters, just because he combines both of their knowledge into one. Without adding other styles to it.

Thus, double your pleasure!
Double the Wing Chun! lol!

Also, he takes his own fighting experience from real world usage in the military, competition, and street encounters and adapts it as needed. As WC/WT was origionally ment to do, evolve. But, evolve as Wing Chun, not as a conglomeration of other arts, with Wing Chun mixed into it. (then you'd have Krav Maga! lol!)

But, seriously. Don't take me too seriously. I'm just hyped up about... well... Novemeber. Can't wait!
WOOOOOT!

 

[matsu]

i didnt realise that untill the 60s ish wing chun was a closed circle with selected people being taught only.
so probably in historical terms that isnt long for a split into wc/wt/vt/vc etc to accept each others differences and still acknowledge their similarites and effectiveness of each.
with the influx of so many new people it wont be long before that happens.
karate has so many "schools" and althought they dont mix and/or fight each other thay all accept each other as karate,just variation of styles.

its never about the style,its more about the person, i think thats true of every endeavour isnt it?
matsu

 

[dungeonworks]

...karate has so many "schools" and althought they dont mix and/or fight each other thay all accept each other as karate,just variation of styles...

That's not quite so accurate in my neck of the woods Matsu. Karate argues politics and history as much as Wing Chun/Ving Tsun/Wing Tsun. Much of the karate in these parts (Michigan USA) use Pinan kata's or Heian Katas and variations of a few shared kata but most styles include their own unique kata with distinct differences in training and wll as fighting. For example, the Okinawan systems near my locality have a heavy focus on using forms and Bunkai (interpretation of kata) with little to no sparring of any type where as my old Koeikan school used full contact sparring with Judo throws/takedowns/subs and Aiki wristlocks. We did kata too, just not as the main focus and application of our karate. Our fighting was much different than the kata-heavy schools.

I know Wing Ving Chun Tsun gets a lot of flack for it's politics, but brother I tell you it is far from absent in Karate....or Tae Kwon Do, Modern Arnis and the Fillipino Martial Arts (of all types), Jeet Kune Do, or any other martial art that an attempt on unifying, organizing, or condensing a system into a standardized curriculum.

 

[KamonGuy2]

Definately. The karate I train in is very adamant that y=they are different from most styles of karate. Neil Groves (cage fighter and good martial artist) always talks about how his karate is different from most of the karate that is out there

My friend (who is a lot more experienced in karate than I am) mentioned that in ancient Japan, you would be taken apart for mixing up styles of karate.

In the Western worl, it isn't as important. Just like people who ask you what wing chun is think all kung fu is the same

The karate styles are very different from each other. There are even elements of movements also found in wing chun that have cropped up in my karate (stamp kicks, vertical punch, etc)

As for Sije - that was a fairly odd comment. I presume you didn't mean to phrase it as such
'I would not want his WT to be confused with Kamon WC. His WT is good. And he doesn't use BJJ to supplement his ground defense'

I took it to mean that you are saying Kamon wing chun is not good. I find that very laughable. And had you ever trained under Kamon or seen Kevin Chan in action you would be absolutely blown away. I have seen wing chun guys all around the world in person and in video clip and most of them are disappointing

Leung Ting is obviously a good martial artist (or he would not have what he has). But my advice to you would be to get out and see what is around before you proclaim that WT is the best thing going. Because I assure you right now there is better out there. Certainly there is better than Kevin Chan (although I haven't met them yet) but the worst thing you can do as a martial artist is to say that your art is the best in the world

Leung Ting doesn't need BJJ?? I think this has been discussed a million times before. All I would say is - ask Leung ing (or your WT instructor) how they recover when they have been dragged to the floor

I'm sure they will give you a fine demonstration of a person coming in (when they see them) and attacking them 'tournament style'. That is not what I am talking about. I am talking about a Saturday night when someone comes up behind you and pulls you to the floor in a choke

For the record, Kevin Chan is one of the best people I have seen at keeping their feet - he knows how to deal with a person coming at him to tray and take him down using both wing chun or BJJ. But the point is that in fights you don't get the luxury of knowing that the person is going to drag you down, trip you, sweep you etc.

 

[Si-Je]

As for Sije - that was a fairly odd comment. I presume you didn't mean to phrase it as such
'I would not want his WT to be confused with Kamon WC. His WT is good. And he doesn't use BJJ to supplement his ground defense'

I took it to mean that you are saying Kamon wing chun is not good. I find that very laughable. And had you ever trained under Kamon or seen Kevin Chan in action you would be absolutely blown away. I have seen wing chun guys all around the world in person and in video clip and most of them are disappointing

Leung Ting doesn't need BJJ?? I think this has been discussed a million times before. All I would say is - ask Leung ing (or your WT instructor) how they recover when they have been dragged to the floor
[\quote]

I didn't mean to come off that Kamon is "bad" WC, just that it is different than other styles. And true, it is not of my preference.

As for "getting out" and seeing other styles of MA. I thought I'd covered that here. Been there and still doing that. I've trained over 8 different styles of MA since I was 10 years old.
I've been to many seminars and schools: tigher eagle kung fu, BJJ, escrima, kali, zapota, savate, Judo, tang soo do, japanese ju-jitsu, wu wei kung fu, japanese karate, Tai Ji, knife fighting, Hapkido, Aikido, Kendo, KenJitsu, MCMAP (from hubbie), MMA, and other styles that were just made up by individuals.

I've focused years of training to only a few styles: Tang soo Do - 3years, Goshin Ju-Jitsu-3 years, Wing Chun - 4-years.

As for Leung Ting, don't care much for him or what others think he "needs". He's a great WT master, and knows his stuff. Other than that, don't care about him. I don't train his WT.
I'm not federated with ANYONE'S WC/WT, and will never ever ever be.
I love Wing Chun and will train it for the rest of my life. I'll train with any other WCer's and would love to learn different "flavors" of Wing Chun. But, I have no interest in useing other MA's to make my WC more "well rounded". I've of the opinion that WC/WT is well rounded on it's own.

But personally, I don't need or want BJJ to supplentment my WC/WT. And I will NEVER use it as ground fighting defense.
Again, this is personal preference, not a declaration that what I take is better than everyone else. And opinion that I like what I take and learn better than other MA's.

 

[Dansel]

from Si Je
"WT tends to be way more aggressive with chain punching. Which is good.
WC more focus on deflection, chi, etc.

WT uses bong sau right away in application, takes a bit longer to polish up. And uses Tan Sau for deflection of hook punches, or just chain punches into opponent when they open up themselves for a haymaker.
WC uses dai sau until student is ready for turning dai sau into bong sau giving you more forward force with bong sau. (and is great for all kinds of hook punch defenses on its own)

WT seems to use advanced stance all the time, or more than not.
WC seems to favor basic stance most of the time.

I think Si lim tao is the same for both, but chum kui seems a bit different.
(haven't learned bui gee yet.)


WC uses more spade hand on opponent when working behind or beside attacker to bring them down for a smaller defender.
WT seems to favor the neck takedowns of a taller man. Which work for me when I throw a heel kick or spade hand to get a taller attacker to my height.

WC seems to focus more on kicking, punching, and deflecting at the same time when attacking and defending than alot of WT I've seen. But that could just be preference to the teachers and the videos they put online."
<<<<

I think wat u mean here Si Je is that the types of WC/WT u no of train this way, the WC/WT i practice follow a different path.

WC - more aggressive, lots of chain punching. Sui Lim tao closer to yip man slt(as seen in the 8mm recordings a week b4 his death), doesn't have set spade hand from behind, just watever works and feels right to you
WT - More defensive. chum kiu 100% weight on back leg alot and more exagerated movement.

advanced stance and basic stance????
WT uses bong sau right away in application, takes a bit longer to polish up. And uses Tan Sau for deflection of hook punches, or just chain punches into opponent when they open up themselves for a haymaker?????



Trained in WC much longer than WT so please excuse the gaps.

 

[KamonGuy2]

But personally, I don't need or want BJJ to supplentment my WC/WT. And I will NEVER use it as ground fighting defense.
Again, this is personal preference, not a declaration that what I take is better than everyone else. And opinion that I like what I take and learn better than other MA's.

Thats fair enough, but like I said, I would love to see your groundwork stuff.
I have NEVER seen any chunner use wing chun to escape from the floor
If you have any videos please post them
Or as I mentioned before, if you have you or your hubby keeping your feet against a high ranking BJJ artist (purple belt or above), please post it

 

[geezer]

[quote=Kamon Guy;1053687]
Leung Ting is obviously a good martial artist (or he would not have what he has)...but the worst thing you can do as a martial artist is to say that your art is the best in the world...

For the record, Kevin Chan is one of the best people I have seen at keeping their feet - he knows how to deal with a person coming at him to tray and take him down using both wing chun or BJJ.. .quote]

Whoa, people, let's stop the sweeping generalizations. WT, WC, VT, or whatever, you'll find as many perspectives as practitioners. I think Kamon is on the right track with the comments quoted above.

About the WT factions (there are three in North America)--It's hard to generalize regarding favored techniques. At the advanced levels they include a lot of stuff not shown on Youtube. The same is true of WC. But technique preferences aside, they all share common concepts of simplicity, efficiency, economy of motion, and borrowing your opponent's force. Nobody said you you couldn't apply these concepts on the ground, adapting to the situation... OK, some people say it. Sifu Leung used to get like that with us, unless the innovation was his idea. I, especially, got chewed out a lot. But I can't help it. I like to try new things.

Anyway, what I'm getting at is WT/WC have some solid techniques that deal with grappling, but our specialty is mid to very-close range stand up fighting. Our long range stuff and ground stuff has not been developed to the same level of detail. What's wrong with investigating BJJ and other arts, if they have moves that are compatible with our core concepts?

 

[dungeonworks]

...Anyway, what I'm getting at is WT/WC have some solid techniques that deal with grappling, but our specialty is mid to very-close range stand up fighting. Our long range stuff and ground stuff has not been developed to the same level of detail. What's wrong with investigating BJJ and other arts, if they have moves that are compatible with our core concepts?

Thanks for posting that...confirmation that I'm not alone in my opinion.

 

[KamonGuy2]

Anyway, what I'm getting at is WT/WC have some solid techniques that deal with grappling, but our specialty is mid to very-close range stand up fighting. Our long range stuff and ground stuff has not been developed to the same level of detail. What's wrong with investigating BJJ and other arts, if they have moves that are compatible with our core concepts?

Exceptionally put. I'm not saying that a wing chun guy who goes to ground is doomed. I'm just saying that a little BJJ or wrestling etc helps a lot

Master Kevin Chan is one of the best wing chun guys I know, and yet he spent years training in other arts just to explore other ideas to compliment his already exceptional wing chun foundation

If he saw anything during his 30 years of kung fu training to suggest that kung fu could counter any grappling technique, he wouldn't have spent the last ten years training it!!

He knows what works and doesn't, and always mentions that wing chun is your best chance in a streetfight

When you see how good he is at other martial arts, you start to realise how good wing chun is. But it isn't infalliable

I think people think that we teach half the class wing chun and half the class BJJ
We do not

I have rarely taught any BJJ in my class and it is only really covered in seminars. Kevin Chan will teach you the entire wing chun syllabus and basically cut the BS and tell you what works and what doesn't

We even had two guys over from Hong Kong who had trained under Ip Chun for the past three decades. Even they mentioned that wing chun is pretty limited on the floor because you have no base to work from

All I would say to those who truly believe that they do not need BJJ - take any big guy that you know and ask him to pin you down. If you can free yourself in a sensible fashion (ie so you don't leave yourself open), then I give you my respect. Remember that any strikes you do - your opponent can do back so you really will have to think about covering your guard so that you don't get caught
Good luck