Will Brazilian Jiujitsu eventually replace Japanese Jujitsu?

[Hanzou]

Nope. The fundamentals are exactly the same. I speak from a certain level of expertise on this matter.

All three of those claims are wrong. There are important ways that "more modern" firearms are distinctly different and could add advantages, but not the ones you listed.

So a gun from the 1860s is just as accurate, reliable, and handles exactly like a modern firearm? We've made no technological progress in gun manufacturing at all in 160 years?

 

[Hanzou]

I think that it's the height of hubris to believe that in more than 5,000+ years of documented grappling that anyone has "improved" on anything. Anything we do now has been done in the past 5,000 years. The only things that change are the rules. When the French "invented" Greco-Roman wrestling by rebranding local French wrestling styles, it was not the same as actual Grecian or Roman wrestling which, from the images and accounts, had many techniques and strategies which are not present in frenchie wrestling specifically because of the rule sets. Then someone comes along and throws out the Greco-Roman rule set, applies one more similar to the ancient rules, adapts the techniques and strategies they know to fit the new rule set, then pats themselves on the back for being "innovative" by re-learning how to do things that the Greeks were documented doing 3,000 years ago. Good job.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

This is pure fantasy. Grapplers today are vastly superior to grapplers in the past. How are they superior? They utilize more refined techniques, and in some cases they have innovated on a variety of fronts. You throw a grappler from the early 1900s into a contest with a modern grappler, and they'd get manhandled. Hell, put a grappler from the 1990s in the ring with a modern grappler, same result.

 

[lklawson]

Okay, but why build skills with an inferior weapon? Wouldn’t I be better off building skills with the superior weapon?

Why on earth would anybody learn to fight with, or against, some outdated, antique, inferior weapon? I mean, it's not like anybody actually uses, for instance, a quarterstaff or <cough> "bo staff" any more.

Oh wait...

 

[lklawson]

This is pure fantasy. Grapplers today are vastly superior to grapplers in the past. How are they superior? They utilize more refined techniques, and in some cases they have innovated on a variety of fronts. You throw a grappler from the early 1900s into a contest with a modern grappler, and they'd get manhandled. Hell, put a grappler from the 1990s in the ring with a modern grappler, same result.

Sorry, we've already established that you're not qualified to talk about this.

 

[lklawson]

So a gun from the 1860s is just as accurate,

The ones being built now, using the "antique" designs, are just as accurate as any.

reliable,

Buy any Ruger, Smith, or Uberti SAA and they are every bit as reliable as anything else you can buy, more so than some.

and handles exactly like a modern firearm?

That's not what you claimed. You wrote "easier to handle" and that is wrong. An SAA is exceptionally easy to "handle" (use).

We've made no technological progress in gun manufacturing at all in 160 years?

Straw man and mark of either sloppy thinking or desperation. No one but you has made that claim.

 

[dunc]

I think that it's the height of hubris to believe that in more than 5,000+ years of documented grappling that anyone has "improved" on anything. Anything we do now has been done in the past 5,000 years. The only things that change are the rules. When the French "invented" Greco-Roman wrestling by rebranding local French wrestling styles, it was not the same as actual Grecian or Roman wrestling which, from the images and accounts, had many techniques and strategies which are not present in frenchie wrestling specifically because of the rule sets. Then someone comes along and throws out the Greco-Roman rule set, applies one more similar to the ancient rules, adapts the techniques and strategies they know to fit the new rule set, then pats themselves on the back for being "innovative" by re-learning how to do things that the Greeks were documented doing 3,000 years ago. Good job.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I know where you’re coming from on this
The rules do certainly change over time and these clearly have a big effect on the techniques and strategies
Also the context for training changes over time

But whilst there may be nothing new that hasn’t turned up at some point or another in human history, in our context today there are techniques being created that are new to everyone

I’d also argue that the pool of people training and exchanging information is exponentially larger than it ever has been in history. As a result, and just like any human endeavour you care to choose, it’s highly likely that there are brand new ideas and strategies being developed

 

[lklawson]

I know where you’re coming from on this
The rules do certainly change over time and these clearly have a big effect on the techniques and strategies
Also the context for training changes over time

But whilst there may be nothing new that hasn’t turned up at some point or another in human history, in our context today there are techniques being created that are new to everyone

New to people currently alive.

I’d also argue that the pool of people training and exchanging information is exponentially larger than it ever has been in history. As a result, and just like any human endeavour you care to choose, it’s highly likely that there are brand new ideas and strategies being developed

Only if the environment and the technology changes. Human joints haven't changed in at least 200,000 years. I guarantee with 100% certainty that humans have been grappling for the entire time. And the body hasn't changed in the intervening milenia. Anything we know now about bending or breaking the body (as opposed to putting it back together again), was recognized a LOOOONG time back. If we don't currently know something about how to bend and break the human body using bare hands in a wrestling event, then it's because we've forgotten it, probably because of social norms and rules associated with sportive events.

It is utterly and completely ludicrous to believe that in the last 199,950 years no one figured out how to torque a joint in just that specific way, but, magically, because we're SOOO much smarter than the previous 10,000 generations, we've only just now figured out a 10 degree angle difference or to pull the body in tighter here. This isn't mechanical propulsion of horses to jets here; this is the human body, which hasn't changed at all.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[dunc]

New to people currently alive.

Only if the environment and the technology changes. Human joints haven't changed in at least 200,000 years. I guarantee with 100% certainty that humans have been grappling for the entire time. And the body hasn't changed in the intervening milenia. Anything we know now about bending or breaking the body (as opposed to putting it back together again), was recognized a LOOOONG time back. If we don't currently know something about how to bend and break the human body using bare hands in a wrestling event, then it's because we've forgotten it, probably because of social norms and rules associated with sportive events.

It is utterly and completely ludicrous to believe that in the last 199,950 years no one figured out how to torque a joint in just that specific way, but, magically, because we're SOOO much smarter than the previous 10,000 generations, we've only just now figured out a 10 degree angle difference or to pull the body in tighter here. This isn't mechanical propulsion of horses to jets here; this is the human body, which hasn't changed at all.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Yeah I’m open to that possibility
The truth is we’ll never know
There are definitely innovations that are new to us today which is the pertinent point
And there are things contained in the older traditions that we can learn from and use today

 

[Steve]

This is pure fantasy. Grapplers today are vastly superior to grapplers in the past. How are they superior? They utilize more refined techniques, and in some cases they have innovated on a variety of fronts. You throw a grappler from the early 1900s into a contest with a modern grappler, and they'd get manhandled. Hell, put a grappler from the 1990s in the ring with a modern grappler, same result.

I don't know about this. Maybe the only advantage modern athletes have is better nutrition and fitness training.

 

[dunc]

I don't know about this. Maybe the only advantage modern athletes have is better nutrition and fitness training.

It'd be interesting to see what are the drivers behind the improvements in various sports that have been around for ever
Are they 100% diet, training methods etc or has our understanding of technique, biomechanics etc improved - dunno

 

[Hanzou]

Sorry, we've already established that you're not qualified to talk about this.

In other words, you're taking your wittle ball and going home.

Straw man and mark of either sloppy thinking or desperation. No one but you has made that claim.

Uh, that's the entire point of what I'm talking about; Modern guns are superior to older guns.

 

[Steve]

I know where you’re coming from on this
The rules do certainly change over time and these clearly have a big effect on the techniques and strategies
Also the context for training changes over time

But whilst there may be nothing new that hasn’t turned up at some point or another in human history, in our context today there are techniques being created that are new to everyone

I’d also argue that the pool of people training and exchanging information is exponentially larger than it ever has been in history. As a result, and just like any human endeavour you care to choose, it’s highly likely that there are brand new ideas and strategies being developed

Good points, and an argument for diversity in rulesets and application, not the absence of it. A grappler who only competes in IBJJF competitions will have a less complete skill set than someone who competes in IBJJF, judo, submission only, gi, and no-gi. And if, on top of all of that, the person uses grappling skills in a more expansive context where striking can be involved, (e.g., MMA, a copper, bouncer, hitman, gang member, or anarchist) he/she'll have an even broader skill set.

 

[Hanzou]

I don't know about this. Maybe the only advantage modern athletes have is better nutrition and fitness training.

If we're talking about grappling, modern athletes have the advantage of 20 years of refinement and technique synthesis from multiple grappling systems. For example, the modern Bjj elite grapplers would run circles around the Gracies. Which is why Gracie JJ as a whole tends to shy away from competitive BJJ and focuses on self defense.

 

[Steve]

It'd be interesting to see what are the drivers behind the improvements in various sports that have been around for ever
Are they 100% diet, training methods etc or has our understanding of technique, biomechanics etc improved - dunno

Depends on the sport. Sometimes, and maybe this is what Hanzou is getting at, it's just a function of better technology. Look at the swimsuit in competitive swimming. At one point, the suits were made of wool. In the 1920s, a person started using the modern "racerback" suit and immediately set new world records. Then someone wore a suit made of silk and set more world records. Then nylon came into play in the 1950s... and more world records. Then lycra, and then in the 1990s (I think), they started wearing the full body suits... all of these made them faster.

I remember just a few years back in the Sydney games, there was a swimmer using a suit made out of some kind of polyurethane or something that made them like 10% faster than if they swam without it.

But that said, I don't see BJJ guys wearing grappling shorts that make them stronger or more skilled.

 

[Hanzou]

To illustrate this further;

The reason Curran Jacobs got mauled in this fight was because he was using outmoded strategies against a high-end Bjj grappler.

 

[Yokozuna514]

New to people currently alive.

Only if the environment and the technology changes. Human joints haven't changed in at least 200,000 years. I guarantee with 100% certainty that humans have been grappling for the entire time. And the body hasn't changed in the intervening milenia. Anything we know now about bending or breaking the body (as opposed to putting it back together again), was recognized a LOOOONG time back. If we don't currently know something about how to bend and break the human body using bare hands in a wrestling event, then it's because we've forgotten it, probably because of social norms and rules associated with sportive events.

It is utterly and completely ludicrous to believe that in the last 199,950 years no one figured out how to torque a joint in just that specific way, but, magically, because we're SOOO much smarter than the previous 10,000 generations, we've only just now figured out a 10 degree angle difference or to pull the body in tighter here. This isn't mechanical propulsion of horses to jets here; this is the human body, which hasn't changed at all.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I do agree with much of what you have written here especially the part on how human anatomy hasn't changed much in 200,000 years however, on the average, people are larger and live longer than they did in the last 100 years. Technology and the flow of information is also much more disseminated now as compared to the past so it is conceivable that more breakthroughs in strategies and tactics to apply techniques are evolving quicker today than they would in the past when this information was held by very few.

I would also add that if people had this knowledge before and we have 'forgotten' it through the years, the methods used to preserve and hand down this information may not be as good as they are now so it is a question that really cannot be answered unless old texts are unearthed that demonstrate that this knowledge existed.

I do appreciate that to call our generation the smartest and the most evolved with better and completely new systems seems a little arrogant. Just in the shear volume of time you stated it would be strange to think someone in our ancestry didn't stumble on to any or all of these techniques that we 'claim' to be new and evolved at one point in time in history. Would they have had the time and resources or even forethought to pass it down is where I think we have an advantage over the previous generations. We live longer and are more wealthier on average. We also seem to have access to more varied body sizes and types that will assist in exploring the concepts in a broader sense. Is that an improvement or evolution ? Only if the environment or technology changes as you said.

 

[Hanzou]

Depends on the sport. Sometimes, and maybe this is what Hanzou is getting at, it's just a function of better technology. .

In terms of guns, certainly. When it comes to grappling, we're better now because we have more communication, so information is spread more rapidly, and that fosters experimentation and innovation. For example, I can check out Danaher's back take to guillotine on youtube, and experiment with it and make it my own. If I start subbing people left and right at a tournament with my modified variation of Danaher's technique, then a lot of Bjj folks are going to be messing around with it, and it'll get modified, refined, and improved even further. That is Bjj's main advantage, because other grappling systems aren't huge fans of people bringing new techniques into the system, and that causes stagnation.

 

[lklawson]

In other words, you're taking your wittle ball and going home.

No. I'm saying that you are unqualified to comment due to ignorance and lack of understanding.

Uh, that's the entire point of what I'm talking about; Modern guns are superior to older guns.

Which is irrelevant to my point so stop trying to divert.

 

[Hanzou]

No. I'm saying that you are unqualified to comment due to ignorance and lack of understanding.

Says the guy who doesn’t know what a guillotine choke looks like.....

Which is irrelevant to my point so stop trying to divert.

But you were responding to MY point.

 

[Yokozuna514]

In terms of guns, certainly. When it comes to grappling, we're better now because we have more communication, so information is spread more rapidly, and that fosters experimentation and innovation. For example, I can check out Danaher's back take to guillotine on youtube, and experiment with it and make it my own. If I start subbing people left and right at a tournament with my modified variation of Danaher's technique, then a lot of Bjj folks are going to be messing around with it, and it'll get modified, refined, and improved even further. That is Bjj's main advantage, because other grappling systems aren't huge fans of people bringing new techniques into the system, and that causes stagnation.

Ummm, not quite. You can watch the video and try it but it MAY improve your previous technique but WATCHING and trying it out in your local club will more than likely NOT result in the leaps you talking about because the other side of the equation is TESTING out what you have seen against opponents that are BETTER than you. This is a key ingredient to improving and one that is often overlooked. Better competition forces you to come up with solutions that will work for you in that situation. Simply having access to information is not enough. Being challenged to learn it and understand it under a multitude of high pressure situations will give you a better opportunity to grow your performance. This is true of not only BJJ but any MA system worth it's salt. Without testing there is no truth (Mas Oyama).