why

[thecrow]

this may have been covered, by why do some teacher knock the crap out of there student in a demo?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

this may have been covered, by why do some teacher knock the crap out of there student in a demo?

I am just an MA newbie, so feel free to disregard this.

First reason - to gauge the student's ability to deal with stress, pain, and pressure.

Second reason - to get the student used to taking a hit. Uke is part of MA training.

Third reason - to get the student to take the lesson seriously be demonstrating how effective the method being taught is, even at lower power (and trust me, most of them are demonstrating at a VERY low power and slow speed even if the student is being bounced around like a rag doll. If they applied full power, the student would be out cold).

In my dojo, learning to hit requires being hit in return. We do not use full power, nor do we hit to injure. But we do not aim away from the target, and when sparring or practicing self-defense techniques, if the uke doesn't block, deflect, or dodge, the uke gets hit. If it's a good hard punch, then it hurts some.

I don't particularly enjoy it when I am the demo for my sensei and I end up with a nice set of bruises the next day. But it is a necessary part of training, I accept that, and I move on. Pain is weakness leaving the body. If I thought my sensei was a sadist, I'd leave - after all, I am there voluntarily.

 

[Twin Fist]

any teacher that doesnt hit thier students is in fact ROBBING those students.

here is why

two things that keep someone from defending themselves are:
1) fear of pain
2) inability to handle pain

those are two different things

1) fear of pain- hey, no one likes to feel pain, right? thats normal, but FEAR of pain can make you less likely to defend yourself. Your instructor hits you to let you know that you wont DIE from pain. Once you learn not to fear pain, you can act without the fear holding you back

2) inability to handle pain- even if you are not afraid of it, tolerance to pain must be learned, and cultivated. In the real world, you WILL get hit, if you are not used to it, the shock of pain can cause you to freeze and in that moment, the fight is lost. getting hit builds your pain tolerance so you can defend yourself effectivly without freezing up.

 

[Carol]

Are we talking about an appropriate pounding, such as instructors hitting students that can take some pain (even if they may not like it at the time)?

Or are we talking about an inappropriate pounding, such as a black belt pounding on a white belt that hasn't learned how to defend himself/herself?

 

[MJS]

this may have been covered, by why do some teacher knock the crap out of there student in a demo?

Its one thing to use controlled contact, but its another to literally beat the crap out of them. As an example....we recently had our Arnis camp. I was one that was called up a few times over the 3 days, to demo a tech. with the insts. that were teaching the camp. There was one night when we were working joint locks. I have to say that it was one of the most painful things that I had experienced in quite some time. I literally felt that if my fingers were tweaked a hair more, they'd break. Was this bad intent on the teachers part? Was he setting out to hurt me? No, of course not.

Keep in mind, the martial arts, are going to involve contact. IMO, if people can't handle the contact, they should start looking for something else to do. I should be able to hit someone in the ribs when doing a tech. and not have to worry about them crying like a baby. Again, I'm not intending to break their ribs, but my God, you gotta have contact.

 

[thecrow]

i see, but could i sway any of you bit from this point of view?

what if the student trained for joint locks and other types of blows, and the instructor never hit the student? what if you set up training for pain and training to take blows?

i see your point i do, but i still think it is unnecessary.

shaolin monks train to take blows. why not the rest? i have never seen a shaolin monk hit a student, not saying it didn't happen just saying i have never seen it.

my teacher,(who is not a shaolin monk) never hit me not one time, and i respect him a great deal, and honor him, and new i did not want to be hit by him. a father doesn't hit his child, maybe a spanking if he is out of line, but he doesn't.
i trained for pain and hit my self with a two by 4, base ball bats, bowling balls,weights, a car once( it was rolling not in gear to clear that up) you name i have probably hit my self with it, did my teacher suggest this no, in fact he said don't do it, just don't get hit, but i needed the just in case, maybe i am a bit crazy but so are the shaolin monks cause i saw them do it, my point is, if you teach right your student will correct his weakness, he will seek them out and make them strengths, isn't this a better way? plus less law suits, lol
my question is, isn't there a better way?

 

[Twin Fist]

no there isnt

there is no way to train for getting hit other than to get hit

if you have never been hit, you WILL freeze up when you do get hit, and on the street, you WILL get hit

sorry, but IMO you were not trained for self defense

 

[LawDog]

Instructor insecurity.
During a demo there is no reason to kick the crap out of any student. Teaching a student how to take a hit is done in the class room only.

 

[Twin Fist]

i think he means in class Lawdog

 

[mwd0818]

There is a definite difference between blasting a student to showcase ego or power and demonstrating and teaching a technique. Martial arts are about fighting and part of fighting is getting hit. Doesn't have to be hard, but the analogy of a parent and a child is flawed. A parent teaches their child how to live, to think, morals, etc. A parent, to be a good teacher of these things, should lead by example, challenge their child and, when lines are crossed, bring those life lessons to the forefront without sugar-coating them. Teaching a child about financial responsibility means letting the kid miss out on something because he blew his money on something else. It probably doesn't mean him getting evicted and living on the street the first time he tries to get his own place, but a parent who bails him out every time paychecks don't meet is failing in the role of being a parent.

Similarly, a martial art instructor who doesn't help a student understand, at least to some degree, the level of violence that is inherent in conflict is to leave them woefully ill-prepared for real-life and real world situations.

Beating a student - no. But slowly developing a tolerance over time is crucial.

 

[LawDog]

Twin Fist,
He does say demo. To many Instructors blast a student a student to show off.

 

[Xinglu]

Twin Fist,
He does say demo. To many Instructors blast a student a student to show off.

I guess the follow up question here is, where is the demo and what is the nature of the hitting?

Is it a demo of the tech during class during teaching? Is it a public demo?

Is the hitting full force? 1/4 force? Just enough to sting, but not enough to bruise? Is this done to children with the same force as adults?

With out more information, it is impossible to tell if this is abuse or just some old school tough love teaching.

 

[Nomad]

Twin Fist,
He does say demo. To many Instructors blast a student a student to show off.

This was my first thought on the topic also. A combination of Ego (wanting to look good in front of the crowd) and in some cases, a lack of belief in their technique (so they need to prove it by hurting the person they're demonstrating on).

In my book, there's a big difference between teaching someone how to take a hit and really hurting them (especially when they've volunteered to let you perform a technique on them in the first place). The first is part of training, the second has no place in the dojo, IMO. If you don't have sufficient control to apply a technique without really hurting your (compliant) uke, you have no business teaching it to others.

 

[zepedawingchun]

this may have been covered, by why do some teacher knock the crap out of there student in a demo?

To scare the audience away from wanting to joining their masochistic arts, er, I mean martial arts school.

 

[Twin Fist]

Lawdog,
we are pretty much on the same page. If it is demo'ing a techniques IN CLASS, then by all means, make the student BELIEVE in the techbique

in a public demo, no need to do that. The un-educated audience wont know any better so there is no need to blast.

 

[MJS]

i see, but could i sway any of you bit from this point of view?

what if the student trained for joint locks and other types of blows, and the instructor never hit the student? what if you set up training for pain and training to take blows?

i see your point i do, but i still think it is unnecessary.

shaolin monks train to take blows. why not the rest? i have never seen a shaolin monk hit a student, not saying it didn't happen just saying i have never seen it.

my teacher,(who is not a shaolin monk) never hit me not one time, and i respect him a great deal, and honor him, and new i did not want to be hit by him. a father doesn't hit his child, maybe a spanking if he is out of line, but he doesn't.
i trained for pain and hit my self with a two by 4, base ball bats, bowling balls,weights, a car once( it was rolling not in gear to clear that up) you name i have probably hit my self with it, did my teacher suggest this no, in fact he said don't do it, just don't get hit, but i needed the just in case, maybe i am a bit crazy but so are the shaolin monks cause i saw them do it, my point is, if you teach right your student will correct his weakness, he will seek them out and make them strengths, isn't this a better way? plus less law suits, lol
my question is, isn't there a better way?

Umm...not sure what it is you're saying here. As I said, there is a difference between putting someone in the ER and hard contact. If you're dealing with locks, the person applying them should be able to put them on, where the uke feels it, but not to the point where you're going to dislocate, break, etc.

Maybe I'm not following you...are you suggesting that there should be NO contact at all? If that is what you're saying, them IMHO, the martial arts are not for you or anyone else that is anti contact.

If you're training for self defense, and you experience no contact, ever, in the dojo, then God help you if you need to defend yourself on the street.

 

[MJS]

Lawdog,
we are pretty much on the same page. If it is demo'ing a techniques IN CLASS, then by all means, make the student BELIEVE in the techbique

in a public demo, no need to do that. The un-educated audience wont know any better so there is no need to blast.

My thoughts exactly. There should still be some contact but not to the point where the people in the demo are being seriously injured.

 

[bigmoe]

Its not reallistic to punch air you need to feel good contact some times.

 

[shaolinmonkmark]

ok, i wouldn't be the kempo guy i am today, had i never punched in, and felt some of the sting, with control mind you, on the techniques the various masters i have worked with.
to me, it seems, you learn what moves do what, and setup for the next move, etc., etc,
I am not a sadist, but understand techniques in the air, do need some practical applications as well, But, when working out with someone, make "Light contact", don't just unleash "Hell" on the poor friendo just punching in/grabbing/holding/choking/weapon swinging!

I would suggest getting a "Bob" sparring pro, although they range from $100 to 229$, man, you have alot of Human targets, especially the head!
Sine i have been working out with the "Bob" 3 times a week, about half speed, my targeting for "Areas of oppurtunity" has increased "Tremendously"!!!!
Cheers!

http://www.securityprousa.com/bobsppamaart.html

 

[shaolinmonkmark]

ok, i wouldn't be the kempo guy i am today, had i never punched in, and felt some of the sting, with control mind you, on the techniques the various masters i have worked with.
to me, it seems, you learn what moves do what, and setup for the next move, etc., etc,
I am not a sadist, but understand techniques in the air, do need some practical applications as well, But, when working out with someone, make "Light contact", don't just unleash "Hell" on the poor friendo just punching in/grabbing/holding/choking/weapon swinging!

I would suggest getting a "Bob" sparring pro, although they range from $100 to 229$, man, you have alot of Human targets, espeially the head!
Sine i have been working out with the "Bob" 3 times a week, about half speed, my targeting for "Areas of oppurtunity" has increased "Tremendously"!!!!
Cheers!

http://www.securityprousa.com/bobsppamaart.html

when you get comfortable, throw clothes and a hat/shades on him! now it is harder to hit the targets!