Why we punch the way we do

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by D.Cobb
Well then, I'm sure you do. So please be so kind as to enlighten and educate those of us that are so far below the level of knowledge, know how and experience, that you have attained.

As for pretense, sorry, but you must have mixed up with someone else.

--Dave

:asian:

ikken hisatsu is NOT determined by 3/4 nor full twist of your fist, period! Don't make me LMAO.

That 3/4 twist or whatever trick, IS NOT going to do squat to attain Ikken Hisatsu. Which, requires long duration of conditioning of NOT only the fists, but also the whole strike system (ie wrists, arms, elbows, shoulders, hips, trunk, and legs), uusing NOT just the makiwara but also, heavy bags of various materials, and weights, as well as a whole set of routines that strengthen other components of the system. On top of that, you also need to get the mechanics of the strike correct.

That is of course just the guideline. Details are for me (and those who are better men than me, of course) to know and for you to find out. LOL.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by D.Cobb
This brings up another good point regarding the 3/4 twist. According to Gray's Anatomy, there is a membrane that covers the radius and the ulna. It is called the interosseous membrane.
When we punch with the 3/4 twist, the bones will bow a little under the strain. As this happens the membrane is supposed to pull tight and distribute the stresses evenly between the bones, to keep them from bowing further, and to maintain the structural integrity of the forearm. The force of the punch should be distributed over the entire length of both bones, so that there is virtually no loss of power or risk of injury.

What is more impressive about this membrane is that it does not transfer stress laterally, but does so diagonally between the bones. As the radius is thicker at the wrist and thinner near the elbow, we find that the ulna thickest near the elbow and thinner near the wrist. The angle of the membrane ensures that the weaker part of each bone is connected to the stronger part of the other bone. The membrane also appears to be designed to work with the natural stress alignments along the arm. When a punch is delivered it is typically force generated along the line of the radius. The pressure on the radius will cause it to move back slightly, but the angle of the membrane works to keep the bone in place and transfer the forces without any play or slack.

Research has shown that during the full twist punc, the radius and the ulna wrap around each other, essentially collapsing onto each other, and the membrane is folded between them. When the membrane is slack, it cannot support the structure of the forearm bones. Instead they bend apart and shift on impact, producing unequal forces in the wrist, and resulting in a loss of punching power and a risk of injury at the weaker bones. The position of the bones during the 3/4 twist punch, is such that optimal tension is maintained throughout the membrane for the duration of the movement. The 3/4 punch also creates equilateral tension in the muscles that turn the wrist. One turns it palm up, the other palm down. The 3/4 punch puts the wrist at about the 1/2 way mark for both of these muscles. The full twist has 1 muscle at full extension and the other fully contracted, creating somewhat of an imbalance, which in turn could allow the wrist to buckle under pressure.

I think for more in depth explanation of this though, RyuShiKan could help out. I belive that Mr. Oyata uses this method of punching in his system.

--Dave
:asian:

Please kindly specify which RESEARCH (name, author, name of journal, date of publication), not just "research has shown"?

Else, it is no different than "scientists say....blah blah blah...".

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by vin2k0
With the horizontal fist punch you can enable the two prime knuckles much more easily than if the fist was vertical. The two knuckles on the left hand side of the fist are the two which should be punched with, with the fist in the correct position it is very easy to punch with these two knuckles. Also the 'corkscrew' type twist in the hand at the end of the technique provides extra power.

These are my perceptions, be them correct or incorrect. The answer i honestly have no idea of, this will be a question for my sensei to answer in full.

That is not the ONLY way to punch. Wing Chun (and JKD) people would tell you not to punch with the 2 prime knuckles.

 

[Erkki]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
Please kindly specify which RESEARCH (name, author, name of journal, date of publication), not just "research has shown"?

Else, it is no different than "scientists say....blah blah blah...".

He did. He cited Gray's Anatomy as his source. Otherwise known as Anatomy of the Human Body, by Henry Gray. You should be able to find it an Amazon.com, Borders, or any other bookstore. It's a pretty well known book.

 

[Elfan]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
That is not the ONLY way to punch. Wing Chun (and JKD) people would tell you not to punch with the 2 prime knuckles.

See this thread:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5070

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Why? Nothing in that thread is new.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Erkki
He did. He cited Gray's Anatomy as his source. Otherwise known as Anatomy of the Human Body, by Henry Gray. You should be able to find it an Amazon.com, Borders, or any other bookstore. It's a pretty well known book.

Henry Gray's Anatomy draws Neither conclusion NOR finding as asserted/claimed in his post.

 

[Erkki]

Ahh, I see what you are saying. You meant the part about research on the 3/4 twist punch, not the part about the membrane on the bones of the arm. I thought you were talking about the post as a whole, since you quoted it entirely. My bad.

 

[chufeng]

Regarding the anatomy and physiology question...

Everything that D.Cobb said is accurate EXCEPT that... when the two bones cross and the connective tissue relaxes...they actually support each other, hence, there is no need for the connective tissue "splint." ... so, that does not fully explain WHY the 3/4 twist is better...

More importantly, when one fully rotates the fist, the shoulder is isolated...it is not "connected" to the body and the force of the blow stops in the shoulder (which means that the arm and all of its parts have to absorb the shock)...The weakest point will suffer the most damage...frequently the wrist, then the shoulder, and lastly, the elbow...so the 3/4 twist is still a stronger technique.

That said...if the fully rotated punch is on the lunging side, and the alignment is right...you can over-rotate the technique and maintain proper allignment...that means going beyond 180 degrees...

The complexities of a simple punch are amazing, aren't they?
That is why one should stick with a system until he/she begins to understand WHY things are done the way they are.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm

That is of course just the guideline. Details are for me (and those who are better men than me, of course) to know and for you to find out. LOL.

So how do I do that if the more enlightened amongst us act so childish, as to play these silly games?

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
Please kindly specify which RESEARCH (name, author, name of journal, date of publication), not just "research has shown"?

Else, it is no different than "scientists say....blah blah blah...".

Um, that is for me to know and you to find out!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Now that is funny!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Oh haha God that's funny!

--Dave

:rofl:

 

[vin2k0]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
That is not the ONLY way to punch. Wing Chun (and JKD) people would tell you not to punch with the 2 prime knuckles.

I'm sure there are certain MA's that say not to, i was only referring to my art, i apologise...

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by D.Cobb
Um, that is for me to know and you to find out!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Now that is funny!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Oh haha God that's funny!

--Dave

:rofl:

Easy there. No need to get hysterical there. Afterall, it is not the same as your BS claim that a 3/4 twist of your fist would give you ikken hisatsu. I am still at a lost as to how you could come up with that claim. So I went back to take a second look at your post.

Originally posted by D.Cobb
... I have felt the difference, between the full twist, with high intensity, and the 3/4 twist with low intensity and the one that knocked me down and across the room was the 3/4. I hope to God I never feel it at full intensity.
....

Now that is FUNNY! LMAO! You can't take a 3/4 twist punch?? You sissy!! lol That proves exactly... NOTHING.. about the 3/4 twist. It only proves that YOU suck! lol See, if everyone cannot take the 3/4 twist, now that might mean something meaningful. Soooo, allow me to borrow a line from RoboCop where the waiter asked the dumb robber who robbed a donut shop filled with COPS, "How does it feel to be a rocket sicentist?" LMAO !!

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Oh BTW, care to enlighten us what you claim [or pretend] to know about ikken hisatsu? LOL

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
Oh BTW, care to enlighten us what you claim [or pretend] to know about ikken hisatsu? LOL

Well, since you are setting yourself up by your comments as something of an expert on the subject, perhaps you could proffer some inkling of your thoughts on the subject...?

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Well, since you are setting yourself up by your comments as something of an expert on the subject, perhaps you could proffer some inkling of your thoughts on the subject...?

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

Why don't you JUST SIMPLY scroll up a bid and read about it in my previous posts then?

 

[Matt Stone]

Well, the best you could manage, it seems, is to point out what is painfully obvious to some and present it to others as some special insight.

You must train the entire "striking system." Thanks for opening the doors to secret knowledge on that one. I thought I just had to train my index finger alone...

"There is a trade-off between maximum speed and maximum power." Did you come up with that yourself, or did someone help you with it?

Different styles will prefer different methods of striking. Wow. You really broke the bank with that lightning bolt of brilliance.

So that pretty much sums up what you have posted so far... Care to elaborate further, or is that the best you can do? Or maybe the best you are capable of is insulting others in a vain effort to somehow imply you are better than they are... You insult, you call names, but you offer little in the way of constructive commentary. Pretty soon you will find your way into history (of a sort) by being the first person I put on my ignore list...

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
about the 3/4 twist. It only proves that YOU suck!

No sorry, you must have me mixed up with your boyfriend.
I wonder if, you walk as funny as you talk....

:rofl: :rofl:

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Enough of BSing. Last call: Are you gonna enlighten us with your knowledge on Ikken Hisatsu or shall we just ikken hisatsu the issue, huh?

Remember this: It is below a real martial artist not being able to admit he is wrong.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Well, the best you could manage, it seems, is to point out what is painfully obvious to some and present it to others as some special insight.

You must train the entire "striking system." Thanks for opening the doors to secret knowledge on that one. I thought I just had to train my index finger alone...

"There is a trade-off between maximum speed and maximum power." Did you come up with that yourself, or did someone help you with it?

Different styles will prefer different methods of striking. Wow. You really broke the bank with that lightning bolt of brilliance.

So that pretty much sums up what you have posted so far... Care to elaborate further, or is that the best you can do? Or maybe the best you are capable of is insulting others in a vain effort to somehow imply you are better than they are... You insult, you call names, but you offer little in the way of constructive commentary. Pretty soon you will find your way into history (of a sort) by being the first person I put on my ignore list...

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

I suppose I can elaborate further but I decide Not to respond to your BSing.

Ikken Hisatsu is Kyokushin's calling card. I see no need for me to justify myself to anyone. If you don't care for my posts, either DON'T read them and Don't respond, OR please DO put me on your ignore list. That goes for anyone who feels the same. I couldn't care less, one way or the other. lol

On the topic of Ikken Hisatsu, so far I am the only one who has post anything material. I am still waiting for D.Cobb to put his money where his mouth is.

Since you see fit to comment on Ikken Hisatsu, I pressume you are qualify to enlighten the readers on this topic? Why don't you post you insight on the Ikken Hisatsu, instead of things that are of no value to the readers?