Why until recently effective TMA practitioners were not represented in MMA?

[Tez3]

But I still think people want their cake and eat it too. So instead of just saying tiger has a better school. (And it is better than mine). Or they produce better martial artists. And saying screw that. That is just too much work for me. I will settle for sleep ins and lesser results.

They try to twist the conversation in a way that puts their system on the same level. Just without ever having to put in the resources to actually have their system on the same level.

That doesn't make sense. someone who doesn't want to be a pro fighter doesn't have to go to a pro gym, it's not about being lazy or staying it bed, it's about what you want out of martial arts.

It's not people 'twisting things to put their organisations on the same level' at all, it's that not all organisations want to turn out pro MMA fighters. How can you compare a karate system for civilian unarmed self defence ( which is for amateurs) with a pro MMA gym (for people who want to fight for a career)? You could conceivably compare a karate class with a class of people doing MMA just to be able to do a martial art and have no intention of ever competing in an MMA fight.
It's a non argument, you don't compare people who hack out on horses because they love their horses with jockey's riding in races, why would you. Two different things even though both are trying to be the best they can.... at different things. Do we also compare first aiders with brain surgeons? Both good at what they do but what they do is different.

Just another excuse for TMA bashing.

Of course if you want to talk about karate techniques that are being done by MMA fighters...………………...

 

[Tez3]

I'm in the kata camp. You're in the emphasis on sparring camp. There's a difference in principle on how best to approach traditional martial arts.

Actually you are quite incorrect, I have done full contact kumite but I also do a lot of kata and MMA.

 

[Buka]

God, I so love martial Arts.

 

[ShotoNoob]

@ShotoNoob, have you ever trained in boxing?

BTW Buka, We have a contingent of BBJ schools here. I got to talking to a BJJ brown-belt one day. Naturally the whole grappling vs. striking issue came up.

To make a long story short, and of course we were talking in person, he GOT IT, on the dynamic striking. How is would shut down the advance of a BJJ stylist. Shut down anyone. The potential, never a guarantee.

BJJ does tons of rolling. I physically expressed my striking movement, he got the sense how dynamic in application that would be, which then the opponent just can't effectively (very difficult to) react to. So I think all that physical encounter type interaction he had in BJJ, what he did and saw and experienced was not described or confined compared to my whole body action.

Some get it, most don't.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Actually you are quite incorrect, I have done full contact kumite but I also do a lot of kata and MMA.

Ah, no. I recognize you practice the curriculum. Your description of your curriculum is more sparring devoted & fuller contact emphasis. And that's legitimate, I explained how I concurred, and said how I valued your particular schools training regimen. Every one is going to vary and select and do what supports their person and intended application.

I think you're spot on for MMA, which is the thread topic. I would propose, and I believe I stated this, that the USA MMA competitors should do more investigative work on your training regimen / that approach, instead of these 'name' USA MMA camps. Europe according to what you wrote, European MMA competitors do a better job on that score.

Taking your case, thinking globally we would have a higher echelon of MMA competitors in the sport. Perhaps Gregard Mousasi is one example. Machida would be in for a tough time should they rematch, IMO.

 

[Tez3]

Your description of your curriculum is more sparring devoted & fuller contact emphasis

Er no, I didn't put up any curriculum nor described one. I said we spar, I didn't say at all it was sparring devoted, it's not. I didn't say it was 'fuller contact oriented' either. I think you have the wrong end of the stick here.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Interesting video you posted. I am curious to know from your Shotokan perspective,

I'm not a Shotokan stylist. I personally can't stand Shotokan. One reason though that I refer to Shotokan is it's very physical in it's practice; hence ,very practical and in line with MMA sport action.

Another reason I refer to Shotokan is that it is most popular karate worldwide, and dominant in Japan. Accordingly, you are referencing a large group of karate practitioners and accordingly a very large amount of material written and posted on line.

Moreover, just because I have a personal preference for another style or styles over Shotokan, that in no way means I can't learn and adsorb what those in another style represent for traditional karate, by and what they have accomplished and achieved. Like Mai.

is this the ideal form of the kata for you ?

Your question is very, very good. I shortened it because now you are really getting into the meat of how to practice traditional karate, in order to realize it's full benefit.

The short answer to your question is yes. But yet that is wrong. For a couple of reasons. In my judgment, Shotokan is practiced with too much physical strength and with too aggressive a mindset. This then weakens or dilutes the YES, which is still true in the broadest, overall principle.

OTOH, there are benefits and advantages to practicing Shotokan's style compared to say TKD. Shotokan is very good for conditioning the body physically yet naturally in a well rounded way. It's specifically designed to do so. It's aggressive demeanor forces one to take action, get out there and really do the technique, put yourself and your body into it. So much of the weak karateka physically could take a lesson from Shotokan. Get yourself activated both mentally & physically.

The best to approach traditional karate is to really ask yourself, what is it trying to do and then HOW?

My personal judgement is that Taikyou kata is not the best kata form for me, or karate in general. Because of some of the qualifiers I've set out above. This judgement, however, is further moderated by how one within the Shotokan style, actually practices kata. For instance, you will see kata on You tube, practiced "slow'" and "fast." Why? Which is best? Why again?

Once one realizes that kata in essense is a mental exercise, you will be able to begin to understand what kata does and how it works and the why's? Kata (and karate) start out physical, look physical, use the physical body; yet the mind, your thinking becomes the ultimated driver. This answers the YES when I started out.

The reason I ask is that we also do Taikyoko katas in Kyokushin and apart from the difference in hikete position which is something we have noted as being different between the two styles, I also noticed that the head block isn't as high as we would typically do it during the mae gedan barai. There is also a question about the straightness of the back leg during the zenkutsu dachi. There seems to be a slight bend in the back leg.

Now again, your getting into the highly technical, and highly conceptual principles of those masters who designed the styles. Why I use Shotokan another reason is that I believe Gichin Funakoshi was an academic who sought to isolate out the hierarchy of principles which power traditional karate and give rise to it's strength, over athletic type training.

A vague answer is the Kyo art & practitioner, being more centered on the sparring, fighting emphasis, altered or modified the structure of Shotokan to make it, in their view, more pragmatic and practical for those purposes. Whether or not Kyo achieves that pragmatism, requires rigorous analysis of what drives karate and what those principle drivers are... before changes can be competently made or assessed. So now you are back to starting with the 1st modern, Japanese karate style, Shotokan karate.

These are not really criticisms per se but a desire to understand the Shotokan perspective.

This is wise. IMO, very wise. Gichin Funakoshi is an under-appreciated martial artist. A skinny little bookworm who took Okinawan karate and fostered it's acceptance across the board practice in Japan and popularity all over the world. provided the basis for many other Japanese, Korean and American karate styles.

Far from perfect he was... his achievement vastly overlooked by todays' marital artists. He was a thinker. I'll show you, post below.

 

[ShotoNoob]

SHOTOKAN KARATE'S 20 PRECEPTS.

The 20 Guiding Precepts of Shotokan Karate-Do
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Lotus Nei Gong International
Published on Nov 24, 2015

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Though no longer a Karate-Do practitioner myself, the 20 guiding precepts of Karate by Gishin Funakoshi were a big influence on my practice in the 'early days'. Here are the precepts with my father Paul Mitchell training alongside them
'-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MMA makes fun of this feel good, tuity fruity kinda experience. And MMA certainly has a point that feeding our personal emotional needs a good fighter doesn't define. Tuity fruity aside... run down this list and Compare to say Mike Winkeljohn's little talks.

I mean Shotokan is attempting to cover the world of philosophical yet critical and important set of theorems on how to consummate becoming a top marital artist. It's a confusing, broad yet vauge, assorted, mis-mass of all kind of principles for the conduct of traditional karate practice. For the art to accomplish what it can.

There's psychological concepts in here. Constant reference to the mind. Hardly a comprehensive text book(s) answer we have in higher education. What this does though, is try to get you to think about what you ought to be doing in karate practice.

The 20 Precepts of Gichin Funakoshi

1. Karate begins with courtesy and ends with courtesy.
2. There is no first attack in Karate.
3. Karate is an aid to justice.
4. First control yourself before attempting to control others.
5. Spirit first, technique second.
6. Always be ready to release your mind.
7. Accidents arise from negligence.
8. Do not think that Karate training is only in the dojo.
9. It will take your entire life to learn Karate; there is no limit.
10. Put your everyday living into Karate and you will find "Myo" (subtle secrets).
11. Karate is like boiling water. If you do not heat it constantly, it will cool.
12. Do not think that you have to win, think rather that you do not have to lose.
13. Victory depends on your ability to distinguish vulnerable points from invulnerable ones.
14. The battle is according to how you move guarded and unguarded (move according to your opponent).
15. Think of your hands and feet as swords.
16. When you leave home, think that you have numerous opponents waiting for you. It is your behaviour that invites trouble from them.
17. Beginners must master low stance and posture, natural body positions are for the advanced.
18. Practicing a kata is one thing, engaging in a real fight is another.
19. Do not forget to correctly apply: strength and weakness of power, stretching and contraction of the body and slowness and speed of techniques.
20. Always think and devise ways to live the precepts every day.

Courtesy of English Shotokan Academy

• When your accept or realize that this is what is embodied in Taikyoku kata, this is what you are exercising when you train Taikyoku kata, you will understand how it can be said, as a mater of principle, Taikyoku kata is the ultimated kata.

 

[DaveB]

The same. Just applied better.
Because their focus is to try to make the best martial artist they can. Rather than appeal to hobbyists.

Not everyone trains at that level. But enough do to keep high standards.

Mr comes once a week. Can train where the glass ceiling is higher. And that gives someone more opportunity.

But I still think people want their cake and eat it too. So instead of just saying tiger has a better school. (And it is better than mine). Or they produce better martial artists. And saying screw that. That is just too much work for me. I will settle for sleep ins and lesser results.

They try to twist the conversation in a way that puts their system on the same level. Just without ever having to put in the resources to actually have their system on the same level.

Training is not the art.

 

[Martial D]

This is hilarious.

 

[ShotoNoob]

The reason I ask is that we also do Taikyoko katas in Kyokushin and apart from the difference in hikete position which is something we have noted as being different between the two styles, I also noticed that the head block isn't as high as we would typically do it during the mae gedan barai. There is also a question about the straightness of the back leg during the zenkutsu dachi. There seems to be a slight bend in the back leg.

These are not really criticisms per se but a desire to understand the Shotokan perspective.

Now with the background on kata I have posted, examine or re-examine your question about the technical differences between the Taikyoku kata of Shotokan, and the Taikyoku kata of Kyokushin. Compare and contrast the similarities and the differences, and then analyze the differences in the context of the similarities.

I will say that in terms of chamber or hikete, the Chinese tend to post on the hip. The Japanese karates at the waist. The Korean karates at the ribs. They all have reasons or adaptations. Study what / determine the purpose chambering and then the reasons for such adaptations. My suggestion.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Er no, I didn't put up any curriculum nor described one. I said we spar, I didn't say at all it was sparring devoted, it's not. I didn't say it was 'fuller contact oriented' either. I think you have the wrong end of the stick here.

"didn't ,didn't ,wrong," I gave much more detailed descriptive postings acknowledging the substance of your postings.

 

[drop bear]

That doesn't make sense. someone who doesn't want to be a pro fighter doesn't have to go to a pro gym, it's not about being lazy or staying it bed, it's about what you want out of martial arts.

It's not people 'twisting things to put their organisations on the same level' at all, it's that not all organisations want to turn out pro MMA fighters. How can you compare a karate system for civilian unarmed self defence ( which is for amateurs) with a pro MMA gym (for people who want to fight for a career)? You could conceivably compare a karate class with a class of people doing MMA just to be able to do a martial art and have no intention of ever competing in an MMA fight.
It's a non argument, you don't compare people who hack out on horses because they love their horses with jockey's riding in races, why would you. Two different things even though both are trying to be the best they can.... at different things. Do we also compare first aiders with brain surgeons? Both good at what they do but what they do is different.

Just another excuse for TMA bashing.

Of course if you want to talk about karate techniques that are being done by MMA fighters...………………...

Of course you can compare these systems.

You compare it by seeing how the professionals do it better.

People who hack out on horses would ride better if they trained more like jockeys.

If people looked at professional mma fighters and compared how they trained they would become better at civilian self defense.

You can compare apples and better apples.

 

[drop bear]

Training is not the art.

Yeah. I was isolating just the training. Because there is this disparity before we even factor in the art.

 

[drop bear]

I've never heard anyone argue something contrary to this. I think Tez's point is that much of TMA is designed for Mr. Can't-train-as-often.

So nobody is arguing this?

 

[_Simon_]

100 man kumite = 2-1/2 hours of continuous fighting with the only break being to change opponents. Shihan Judd Reid is one of the latest karateka to complete it and make a documentary about his journey. If you have never seen it, it is worth a look.

I am sure there are other organizations that use this format as well but if you do Kyokushin and you say you did the 100 man kumite, it will be very apparent when you step on the floor.

Yep Shihan Judd's was incredible... he holds camps every year pretty close to where I live, have not gone on one though.

But yeah the 100 man kumite is something very special in Kyokushin and it's probably one of the most difficult challenges in MA altogether... absolutely brutal... and I think you can put in interest to do it but have to be invited. A Sensei in our branch was invited to do the 50 man kumite last year, was amazing...

 

[DaveB]

This is hilarious.

Which bit?

 

[Tez3]

"didn't ,didn't ,wrong," I gave much more detailed descriptive postings acknowledging the substance of your postings.

and now you have lost me. I have no idea what you are talking about.

People who hack out on horses would ride better if they trained more like jockeys.

No absolutely not, jockeys are actually appalling riders. Most can't do a rising trot, cannot do the aids, fall off when 'normal' riders don't. Flat jockeys can't jump, jump jockeys barely can they can only do it on racehorses who can't jump properly either. (there's a reason racehorse have to be retrained) Jockeys cannot do dressage, nor can they actually ride long ie properly. Most times they cannot ride on a normal saddle and stirrups. Only those jockeys who learnt to ride as children from a proper instructor and hack out can actually ride but there's not a lot of them, William Buick is one I can think of he started the traditional way despite his father being a jockey.
Jockey's training consists of starving themselves day in and day out, some weight training ( normal riders get this mucking out and throwing bales of straw and hay around) and riding out in the mornings. Riders who hack out have invariably learnt to ride properly and riding out keeps them fit. They are miles better horsemen and women than jockeys.

 

[Headhunter]

and now you have lost me. I have no idea what you are talking about.




No absolutely not, jockeys are actually appalling riders. Most can't do a rising trot, cannot do the aids, fall off when 'normal' riders don't. Flat jockeys can't jump, jump jockeys barely can they can only do it on racehorses who can't jump properly either. (there's a reason racehorse have to be retrained) Jockeys cannot do dressage, nor can they actually ride long ie properly. Most times they cannot ride on a normal saddle and stirrups. Only those jockeys who learnt to ride as children from a proper instructor and hack out can actually ride but there's not a lot of them, William Buick is one I can think of he started the traditional way despite his father being a jockey.
Jockey's training consists of starving themselves day in and day out, some weight training ( normal riders get this mucking out and throwing bales of straw and hay around) and riding out in the mornings. Riders who hack out have invariably learnt to ride properly and riding out keeps them fit. They are miles better horsemen and women than jockeys.

It's quite funny the guy talking the most trash is a guy called shotoNOOB and his profile picture is wearing a white belt

 

[Headhunter]

That's not what Jony Hendricks said in his post-fight interview, UFC Fight Night 82.

Oh, and for all you MMA buffs, Hendricks defeated GSP and that Tristar super boxing.

I've heard all this before, including in my own dojo. Kata is King.

Nope actually Gsp beat Hendricks by decision. Do your homework. Otherwise you look stupid....and you don't need any help with that