Why until recently effective TMA practitioners were not represented in MMA?

[Tony Dismukes]

Good thing you made the switch from that substandard "Bujinkan" (you name dropper you), to that realistic, modern MMA stuff. Did wonders for Conor against Khabib.
...
BOOM, Khabib drops him Round 2.

This sort of non-sequitur is a major reason we're having trouble making sense of what you are trying to say.

Leaving aside the fact that I'm not an MMAer ...

You seem to be implying that the results of the Khabib-Conor fight are in some way relevant to the relative effectiveness of TMA (whatever TMA means to you ... I still can't tell) vs MMA.

Khabib-Conor was a match between two elite practitioners of modern MMA. No matter what happened in that fight, one MMA fighter was going to win and one was going to lose. Whichever one it was can't possibly indicate anything one way or the other about the value of TMA.

 

[ShotoNoob]

But because of that example, and the evidence I have seen, I can say that TMA can be as effective as MMA, or at least that one TMA. I know that (when it comes to striking), kempo has the ability to perform.

Where is the kempo in MMA? Nowhere, that's where.

So I can look at another kempo school of the same style, and I know that their techniques and style have the ability to compete, if they were to train more and in an effective manner.

I recently posted the same opinion about karate styles. Was told how could I do that? Definately differences in Goju vs. Shotokan, similarities too depending oh how you slice it.

And what is a more effective manner of training? Pls. summarize.

As I'm writing this, I get the feeling that you agree with it, and what you are arguing has been lost on me...

It's heartening to see at least one TMA you think to be effective in MMA, yours!

EDIT: See we have an explanation as to why TMA isn't well represented in MMA. Kind hint well [your] Kempo (which isn't seen for miles in MMA) is the one that works.

 

[ShotoNoob]

This sort of non-sequitur is a major reason we're having trouble making sense of what you are trying to say.

Oh, I'm failing Blogging 101. Trouble alert.

Leaving aside the fact that I'm not an MMAer ...

Big step there Tony. How do the arts you adopt apply to MMA? Brief squib all's that's needed.

You seem to be implying that the results of the Khabib-Conor fight are in some way relevant to the relative effectiveness of TMA (whatever TMA means to you ... I still can't tell) vs MMA.

Tony you ARE replying by saying nothing of substance, as usual. Hey if you still can't tell, you can't tell.

Khabib-Conor was a match between two elite practitioners of modern MMA. No matter what happened in that fight, one MMA fighter was going to win and one was going to lose. Whichever one it was can't possibly indicate anything one way or the other about the value of TMA.

By elite, you mean champions in the UFC? Modern you mean what time frame? One competitor was going to win, one was going to lose. Grade = "F" for substance. Stating an obvious generalities cast as martial wisdom.

And since the one was going to win and one was going to lose, why continue since it's just a TMA vs. MMA coin toss. Again Tony, very 1-dimensional rhetoric which merely states your position w/o venturing, posting substance.


Better MMA fighter bests losing MMA fighter. A brownie point for working 'elite' in there.


Says a lot.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Where is the kempo in MMA? Nowhere, that's where.

And? I didn't say it was in MMA. I don't practice MMA. I know it can be effective based on its performance in kickboxing.

I recently posted the same opinion about karate styles. Was told how could I do that? Definately differences in Goju vs. Shotokan, similarities too depending oh how you slice it.

Ok? I have not read that, or if I did, I dind't understand it.

And what is a more effective manner of training? Pls. summarize.

The general gist is resistance training, and not over-compliance. Also, not necessarily a focus on fitness in the class, but an acknowledgment that fitness is important. Beyond that, drills that are not just in the air (I've seen both on a person or on a bag be effective), and consistency in the lessons (don't say one day 'keep your knuckles rotated during a reverse punch', then say to rotate them a different way the next day). That's purely for general combat effectiveness, which is what I was addressing, not specific scenarios, or additional SD concerns.

It's heartening to see at least one TMA you think to be effective in MMA, yours!

EDIT: See we have an explanation as to why TMA isn't well represented in MMA. Kind hint well Kempo (which isn't seen for miles in MMA) is the one that works.

I actually think quite a few would be effective. But I don't have any experience that mine is effective in MMA, just kickboxing. I could list them out for you, but first I'd need to know what arts you do/don't consider a TMA.

Also, while others may be too nice to say this, coming onto a site, and just being a general dick to people after assuming you know their stance, isn't the best way to get someone to change their opinion. So either you need to work on that, or you have some other reason of being on here.

 

[ShotoNoob]

And? I didn't say it was in MMA. I don't practice MMA. I know it can be effective based on its performance in kickboxing.

Agreed. But yet we are looking at the under-representing of TMA in MMA, not fine-lining how you want to make some literal counter point to every line I write.

Ok? I have not read that, or if I did, I dind't understand it.


The general gist is resistance training, and not over-compliance. Also, not necessarily a focus on fitness in the class, but an acknowledgment that fitness is important. Beyond that, drills that are not just in the air (I've seen both on a person or on a bag be effective), and consistency in the lessons (don't say one day 'keep your knuckles rotated during a reverse punch', then say to rotate them a different way the next day). That's purely for general combat effectiveness, which is what I was addressing, not specific scenarios, or additional SD concerns.

Well, as a generality there is some truth in the TMA conditioning not being as rigorous across the board. The other side of that coin, and which as been posted here by others, is the amount of dedication varies tremendously. A TMA practitioner can still obtain great benefits from the TMA approach with modest physical conditioning.

Martial arts in general does better w better conditioning, we should all agree.

On the resistance training, I'm on board with that as a general principle. And I spoken on that divide in philosophy in my earlier posts. I will agree many get that proverbial wake up call once the going gets tough, but this is the lazy and unthinking to a large degree, TMA wise. A majority of practitioners unfortunately.

The latter is why I propose Shotokan karate for MMA minded, because it's traditional practice is very physically oriented.

I get it. Then those who train under your umbrella are going to have that better level of conditioning to better prepare for the realities when they pop up.

I actually think quite a few would be effective. But I don't have any experience that mine is effective in MMA, just kickboxing. I could list them out for you, but first I'd need to know what arts you do/don't consider a TMA.

Well, don't wait on me. We've seen some experienced karate backgrounds do well in MMA, up to a point. Won't rehash what MMA has rehashed a million times there.

Also, while others may be too nice to say this, coming onto a site, and just being a general dick to people after assuming you know their stance, isn't the best way to get someone to change their opinion. So either you need to work on that, or you have some other reason of being on here.

Yeah, upset the apple cart by posting traditional karate w substance. That's tough. I learned by looking to substance, and not engaging in what you say which on the record in the replies / avoiding the issue / rhetorical unclever responses to my posts.

Those invested in a franchise often shoot down any differing view. Shoe fit? In terms of passing judgement, the responsible answer is to address with substance, instead of blank admonishments. Should someone feel their brand or self-made art adaptation is superior to traditional karate, I'm fine with them thinking so. No doubt there is more than plenty in the general public who will side along.

 

[_Simon_]

The people who have already said they're confused about what you are trying to say are a pretty diverse group - practitioners of Karate, Kung Fu, Aikido, BJJ, Muay Thai, Kempo ... I think there might be one actual MMA practitioner.



Now you're claiming that I'm the one writing insults? Please point them out. I don't think you'll have much luck finding examples. I make a point to stay polite even when I disagree with someone or think they're being belligerent.



I make a point to listen, learn, and contribute substantively regardless of who I am responding to. Feel free to point out where and why you think I am failing to do so.



No one is "behind" me. I am, as an individual, encouraging you to communicate in such a way that you can be understood. I think you might enjoy conversations more this way.

There are practitioners from a wide variety of martial backgrounds participating on this thread. The majority are not MMAers. Do you honestly believe that most of them are following whatever points you are trying to make in your posts?

(BTW - "new students"? Some of us that you're jabbing at have 3, 4, or 5+ decades of training. Remind me of what your training background consists of exactly?)

Well said Tony, just wanted to say that, not as a groupie, but just a recognition of respect [emoji14]

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Agreed. But yet we are looking at the under-representing of TMA in MMA, not fine-lining how you want to make some literal counter point to every line I write.




Well, as a generality there is some truth in the TMA conditioning not being as rigorous across the board. The other side of that coin, and which as been posted here by others, is the amount of dedication varies tremendously. A TMA practitioner can still obtain great benefits from the TMA approach with modest physical conditioning.

Martial arts in general does better w better conditioning, we should all agree.

On the resistance training, I'm on board with that as a general principle. And I spoken on that divide in philosophy in my earlier posts. I will agree many get that proverbial wake up call once the going gets tough, but this is the lazy and unthinking to a large degree, TMA wise. A majority of practitioners unfortunately.

The latter is why I propose Shotokan karate for MMA minded, because it's traditional practice is very physically oriented.

I get it. Then those who train under your umbrella are going to have that better level of conditioning to better prepare for the realities when they pop up.



Well, don't wait on me. We've seen some experienced karate backgrounds do well in MMA, up to a point. Won't rehash what MMA has rehashed a million times there.



Yeah, upset the apple cart by posting traditional karate w substance. That's tough. I learned by looking to substance, and not engaging in what you say which on the record in the replies / avoiding the issue / rhetorical unclever responses to my posts.

Those invested in a franchise often shoot down any differing view. Shoe fit? In terms of passing judgement, the responsible answer is to address with substance, instead of blank admonishments. Should someone feel their brand or self-made art adaptation is superior to traditional karate, I'm fine with them thinking so. No doubt there is more than plenty in the general public who will side along.

Will respond to the rest of this in the morning, if i remember, but just wanted to ask what franchise you think i am interested in, and what differing view i am shooting down. I am suggesting, and have suggested continuously on this forum that with appropriate training, tma's can be just as effective as mma, which I'm semi certain is also your belief. But you seem to think everyone here is an advocate for mma, hence my statement of you acting like a dick without knowing the other people's stances.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Depends how you have cross trained.

You cross train and I cross train so therefore we are basically the same thing. Is that what you are trying to say here?

Nope. Not at all what I said. Note that I said "Cross-trained folks can have a similar spectrum of skills to MMA...." Can, not will.

What I'm getting at is that "TMA" is too broad a spectrum to speak of in one breath. If my cross-training is well-trained Judo and Kyokushin, that's a very different mix from Karakido Karate (a lamentably real thing taught at a dojo in my town) and a sloppy version of Bujinkan's Taijutsu.

Because training matters.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And training once a week vs every day might be the factor. But it still may not. You would have to do it to find out.

Most of us have enough experience with both to know that it generally does matter. Not every guy who trains daily can take every guy who trains weekly, but generally it's true. And most of us have had at least periods where we trained more and harder (and saw our skills improve dramatically) and other times when we didn't commit as much time or energy (and didn't see the same level of improvement, and maybe even some loss).

Is it "the factor"? No. But it is definitely "a factor".

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Tony, here we have [yet] another example of why TMA fails in MMA. Oh, and it's Tony, "representative of the people." You mean the MMA minded groupies you hang out with. The "people," who went from TMA to the MMA business.



Change "...then you insult the way I am writing;" to "the insults that I wrote;" and we'll be on the same page. Who's this dribble meant for, impressionable MMA adolescents who are wandering around on the 'net?



Tony, here's what I'm suggesting. When you show up at my thread posts, come with your gi pressed, you belt tied correctly and snug, and be ready to listen, learn and make a substantiative contribution. Put 1 + 1 together, or try to.



Tony of the "people"again. Yes Tony, the "people" are behind you. Add to my requirement to all new students as per the previous directive, bring yourself as an individual. Stop leaning like a groupie on your MMA cohorts. Stand tall.

Your condescension knows no bounds, does it?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Where is the kempo in MMA? Nowhere, that's where.

You mean, "nowhere I've ever seen it, so I assume nowhere, that's where".

It's heartening to see at least one TMA you think to be effective in MMA, yours!

You see, most people post based upon their experience, rather than pages upon pages of something they admit they know nothing about (which you've done repeatedly). So, yes, the TMA he studies is the one he posted about. SHOCKING!

EDIT: See we have an explanation as to why TMA isn't well represented in MMA. Kind hint well [your] Kempo (which isn't seen for miles in MMA) is the one that works.

More condescension. Your posts fairly drip with it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Oh, I'm failing Blogging 101. Trouble alert.

You're failing Communication 101. Whatever point you're trying to make, you're not.

Big step there Tony. How do the arts you adopt apply to MMA? Brief squib all's that's needed.

Before you go demanding background from others, maybe share yours. That's polite. Or - at the very minimum - ask politely.

Tony you ARE replying by saying nothing of substance, as usual. Hey if you still can't tell, you can't tell.

Laughable.

By elite, you mean champions in the UFC? Modern you mean what time frame? One competitor was going to win, one was going to lose. Grade = "F" for substance. Stating an obvious generalities cast as martial wisdom.

By "elite" he means the common usage of the word:

"e·lite
/əˈlēt,āˈlēt/
noun

1. 1.
   a select part of a group that is superior to the rest in terms of ability or qualities."

As for the rest, he's pointing out a flaw in your repeated comments about that and other fights. Substance.

And since the one was going to win and one was going to lose, why continue since it's just a TMA vs. MMA coin toss. Again Tony, very 1-dimensional rhetoric which merely states your position w/o venturing, posting substance.

Was that supposed to be substantive, or just dismissive. You managed only the latter.

Better MMA fighter bests losing MMA fighter. A brownie point for working 'elite' in there.


Says a lot.

More condescension, with no more substance. And toss in another bit of dismissive attitude.

Where's all that character strength TMA is meant to build?

 

[ShotoNoob]

Will respond to the rest of this in the morning, if i remember, but just wanted to ask what franchise you think i am interested in, and what differing view i am shooting down. I am suggesting, and have suggested continuously on this forum that with appropriate training, tma's can be just as effective as mma, which I'm semi certain is also your belief. But you seem to think everyone here is an advocate for mma, hence my statement of you acting like a dick without knowing the other people's stances.

Thanks for the candor. I'll wait to see what you have to respond with yourself.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Agreed. But yet we are looking at the under-representing of TMA in MMA, not fine-lining how you want to make some literal counter point to every line I write.

From what I understand, you were the one making a literal counterpoint to every line I wrote. I stated an example of TMA being useful in sports competition, which can be generalized in MMA. You stated kempo is not seen in MMA. I specified I hadn't seen it there, only in kickboxing. But the 'MMA guys' you refer to accept kickboxing as evidence of striking skills, for fairly good reasons.

Well, as a generality there is some truth in the TMA conditioning not being as rigorous across the board. The other side of that coin, and which as been posted here by others, is the amount of dedication varies tremendously. A TMA practitioner can still obtain great benefits from the TMA approach with modest physical conditioning.

Martial arts in general does better w better conditioning, we should all agree.

Yup. In agreement here. And in some of the other parts, not going to respond 'we agree' to all of it.

Well, don't wait on me. We've seen some experienced karate backgrounds do well in MMA, up to a point. Won't rehash what MMA has rehashed a million times there.

I kind of do have to wait on you to say what TMA are effective in MMA, based on your definition of TMA. To me, muay thai and bjj are both TMA's, wrestling could be considered one as well, and I believe most MMA people practice one of those 3. I get the feeling that's not what you're considering TMA's though.

Yeah, upset the apple cart by posting traditional karate w substance. That's tough. I learned by looking to substance, and not engaging in what you say which on the record in the replies / avoiding the issue / rhetorical unclever responses to my posts.

Again, it's not that you do traditional karate, or offer substance. It's that you are assuming people's stances, which, if you took time to listen to them, are pretty close to your own. The attitude you come off with matters in an online discussion, unless you have no desire to have people actually listen/pay attention to what you're saying.

Those invested in a franchise often shoot down any differing view. Shoe fit? In terms of passing judgement, the responsible answer is to address with substance, instead of blank admonishments. Should someone feel their brand or self-made art adaptation is superior to traditional karate, I'm fine with them thinking so. No doubt there is more than plenty in the general public who will side along.

Copy/paste of my above reply, just to keep it organized.
What franchise do you think i am interested in, and what differing view am I shooting down? I am suggesting, and have suggested continuously on this forum that with appropriate training, tma's can be just as effective as mma, which I'm semi certain is also your belief. But you seem to think everyone here is an advocate for mma, hence my statement of you acting like a dick without knowing the other people's stances.

 

[Buka]

Bro, have you earned your first belt in your dojo yet? I'm just curious.

I'm still curious.

 

[Flying Crane]

Bro, have you earned your first belt in your dojo yet? I'm just curious.

I'm still curious.

he is working on his green belt under PhotonGuy via internet instruction. Although I’m not sure PhotonGuy would agree with his claim.

See here, start at post #29:
Just Made Green Belt In Goju Ryu

 

[drop bear]

Nope. Not at all what I said. Note that I said "Cross-trained folks can have a similar spectrum of skills to MMA...." Can, not will.

What I'm getting at is that "TMA" is too broad a spectrum to speak of in one breath. If my cross-training is well-trained Judo and Kyokushin, that's a very different mix from Karakido Karate (a lamentably real thing taught at a dojo in my town) and a sloppy version of Bujinkan's Taijutsu.

Because training matters.

And we see judo and kyokushin representing in MMA. and that is due probably to their solid sport element.

Now if someone did Japanese jujitsu and wado-ryu. They probably would not represent as well. Even though they are technically learning the same thing.

And they seem to take lengths to differentiate themselves.
Difference between Traditional Karate and Sport Karate

So it isn't just my thing.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Well said Tony, just wanted to say that, not as a groupie, but just a recognition of respect [emoji14]

Loyalty's a fine thing.

 

[ShotoNoob]

And we see judo and kyokushin representing in MMA. and that is due probably to their solid sport element.

Now if someone did Japanese jujitsu and wado-ryu. They probably would not represent as well. Even though they are technically learning the same thing.

And they seem to take lengths to differentiate themselves.
Difference between Traditional Karate and Sport Karate

So it isn't just my thing.

Here's the into to your linked material.

Before selecting a karate school for your child, make sure you know and understand which form of karate you’re enrolling him/her into. Generally speaking, there are two different types of karate classes, traditional karate and sport karate.

What did you think of the write-up?

 

[ShotoNoob]

Your condescension knows no bounds, does it?

You're looking into mirror, my friend. And it shows.