Why the opening action??

[Danny T]

In my training Forms are a mnemonic teaching device, some have multiple aspects or layers.
Likewise for the opening movements and positions of SLT. It isn't about an application.

 

[karatejj]

I was taught something similar. At a very basic level crossing the arms teaches the beginner to define the centerline. This was done because mirrors were not typically available. Pulling the hands back to the sides is really just to set you up for the next section. You can interpret that as starting to teach the lop sau motion as well, and after you have learned the closing section it can be seen as a wrist grab escape in concert with the Teut sau motion.

Now I am sure that LFJ would laugh at this since his VT is so extra special and different from everyone else's!

Cool, good anser. Now we are egtting somewhere!

 

[karatejj]

The part where you cross the arms low, high and then draw the fists back, though I doubt it was included in the form for that purpose, in my lineage has a very strong resemblance to the arm movements in the basic jiu jitsu cross collar choke from guard. I teach a fair number of my instructor's wing chun students jiu jitsu, and I always refer them to that part of the form as a reference for the cross collar choke. It works.

Exact what I said!!

Then he said but hands don't cross, contradict himself!

And lol hes agree with you're post ROFL

 

[karatejj]

No one needs that! But he who is willing to dish it out should also be willing to take it! And LFJ is obviously unwilling to take what he is willing to dish out!

Does LFJ demand video from folks? I never seen??

 

[karatejj]

ive only started WC not long ago but i always thought the opening action WAS to find the centre line?
if its something else hidden or not well known in really curious about what else could it be!!!

Me too

 

[karatejj]

So enlighten us all Master! What does it represent in your uber special advanced VT?

And, BTW I did state that what I was saying was basic. Yet you and you "yes man" disagreed. Funny thing is that Joy disagreed as well, and I'm pretty sure I first learned this from him nearly 30 years ago when I was initially working on SNT. So I sense a strong bias here from more than one person. I expect at this point it wouldn't matter what I write. You guys will find a way to disagree with it! And IMHO, to just disagree with someone without explaining why you disagree and providing your alternate explanation is pretty low,unfriendly", and not at all in the spirit of a Discussion forum.

Agree, people should go more detail.

Can you give more than basic interp explain above? I want to learn more about wing chun and ur about the only guy willing to share it!!

 

[karatejj]

It is, but it also has application. One such is to break the grip on your wrists, another (as mentioned by anerlich) is a collar choke. A third would be a low arm trap/block.

Huh? I mentioned collar choke and you said no because wrist don't cross??

Cool interpretation man, I like it! So you are getting a kind of front cross choke hold with this move??

No, the arms don't cross. It's like a lapel grab and pull back /sink to stance. Once in stance it's the cross arms down/up to attain center.(although there are also a few practical applications for this besides getting center too)

explain please?

 

[karatejj]

In my training Forms are a mnemonic teaching device, some have multiple aspects or layers.
Likewise for the opening movements and positions of SLT. It isn't about an application.

Cool, whats this multiple layers teaching? Please go more deep because I only have basic understanding it looks like. You guys know way more!!

 

[wckf92]

@karatejj
1. have you asked your instructor/Sifu about your questions regarding "the opening move"?

2. tell us your thoughts on it. What do you think it is for?

3. What style/version or lineage of WC are you learning?

 

[KPM]

Does LFJ demand video from folks? I never seen??

In the past LFJ has indeed refused to believe what someone has said if they could not produce video to back it up. The most recent example on another thread was when a prominent TWC master said he had no problem using his style in competition and LFJ refused to take his word for it without video. But the bigger issue is that LFJ freely and frequently criticizes videos of others but has refused when asked to provide video of himself showing how he would do it better, or even to illustrate or clarify something he has been saying about his system. He feels free to hide behind a set of initials, be argumentative and critical of others, and never really say who he is or where he studies. He wants to be seen as the authority on WSLVT on this forum, but is unwilling to share any video of himself that shows he can actually "walk the talk". So IMHO, he lacks credibility here.

 

[Martial D]

Huh? I mentioned collar choke and you said no because wrist don't cross??





explain please?

Just stop responding to my posts. Explaining things to you is a waste of both of our time, as you can't understand basic English.

This will be my last reply to you.

 

[karatejj]

Just stop responding to my posts. Explaining things to you is a waste of both of our time, as you can't understand basic English.

This will be my last reply to you.

Its ok dude, I won't keep stomping you wit you're own mistake. I can be teh bigger man. If u too ashame to talk to me afterward..well that you're problem, LOL

 

[Martial D]

thanks, i can see the application of the other two but need to actually see if i can do a collar choke in that position. im thinking more of a flying v into someones neck like a wrestling move LOL

Well, the way I was taught it was a little different than most WC I've seen.

Most seem to cross up by rotating the arms in such a way that the left arm is in front on the bottom, and when you cross up the right arm is in front.

The way I do it, the right wrist circles underneath so the left wrist is in front the entire time. This makes the grip break more effective, and lends itself better to the collar choke.

 

[karatejj]

@karatejj
1. have you asked your instructor/Sifu about your questions regarding "the opening move"?

2. tell us your thoughts on it. What do you think it is for?

3. What style/version or lineage of WC are you learning?

I ask and he says it define centre line, like some other guy here say.

I not really have too many thought about it. All I know LFJ say some place that too understand it is a mark of the real wing chun. Other knowlege sifu like KPM and Danny T also refer to the "basic understand" and teh "deeper knowledge". So have to say I really curious now!!

I am learn a fusion of wing chun and boxing. Searching for it what was brought me too here!

 

[LFJ]

The action is not an application of any sort; neither a freeing hand nor collar choke. (Are you choking children or little people?)

It imparts strategic information regarding attack lines and spatial control through striking.

It's directly related to the last three actions, but not as freeing hands, which is also directly related to the action that ends almost every section of CK, which is also directly related to the BJ action that goes underneath, which is all related to daan-chi-sau, pun-sau, and laap-sau.

In fact, it's a main conceptual thread that runs through the entire system.

Now, why would a wrist-grab escape be that important?? It's not! No one has ever grabbed my wrist while I was taking a leak.

That is skin and hair people came up with looking at the shapes while having no information!

It's not a nifty self-defense technique. It's imparting strategic information on a way of free fighting.

 

[wckf92]

The action is not an application of any sort; neither a freeing hand nor collar choke. (Are you choking children or little people?)

It imparts strategic information regarding attack lines and spatial control through striking.

It's directly related to the last three actions, but not as freeing hands, which is also directly related to the action that ends almost every section of CK, which is also directly related to the BJ action that goes underneath, which is all related to daan-chi-sau, pun-sau, and laap-sau.

In fact, it's a main conceptual thread that runs through the entire system.

Now, why would a wrist-grab escape be that important?? It's not! No one has ever grabbed my wrist while I was taking a leak.

That is skin and hair people came up with looking at the shapes while having no information!

It's not a nifty self-defense technique. It's imparting strategic information on a way of free fighting.

Cycling the hands...
above, underneath, etc...

 

[LFJ]

In the past LFJ has indeed refused to believe what someone has said if they could not produce video to back it up. The most recent example on another thread was when a prominent TWC master said he had no problem using his style in competition and LFJ refused to take his word for it without video.

Wrong.

The thing is, he was acting as if he could brush off any criticism by claiming to have been a competitive fighter.

He does that to people all the time. But, but I was unable to find any record to support his claim, written or otherwise.

When asked for proof, he stopped talking.

Now, I don't claim to be anything. I just discuss the system as I know it. I've never demanded video from anyone, and don't know or care who any of you are "in real life".

No one is required to make their information public, especially not because some tough guy on the internet says you lack credibility if you don't show your face. That's just deflecting possibly valid criticism, which is what you get when you openly share your views on a discussion forum.

 

[Martial D]

The action is not an application of any sort; neither a freeing hand nor collar choke. (Are you choking children or little people?)

It imparts strategic information regarding attack lines and spatial control through striking.

Every single movement in SLT has fighting application.

 

[LFJ]

Every single movement in SLT has fighting application.

That people made up by looking at the actions without explanation and thinking, hmm, what could that be?

 

[Martial D]

That people made up by looking at the actions without explanation and thinking, hmm, what could that be?

If it works, it works. It doesn't matter much to me if it falls within the confines of your special version of wslvt.