Why some people still don't want to wear mask?

Discussion in 'The Locker Room Bar & Grill' started by Kung Fu Wang, Aug 29, 2020.

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  1. EdwardA

    EdwardA Green Belt

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    This is exactly why another warming was given, and that is a biased statement. I knew what you said earlier was a tell. Now you've confirmed it. You refuse to be neutral for the sake of the forum.
     
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  2. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    lol. You found me out. You're very smart. I'm not neutral. Can you remind me what your point is? Or how about the unbiased neutrality rule? I must have missed that one. :)
     
  3. EdwardA

    EdwardA Green Belt

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    Ignored, out of respect for the forum rules.
     
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  4. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Ok.

    But left and right is a point of perspective. A Democrat? (I hope I got that correct. The lefty ones) is still a capitalist. So to a Marxist a Democrat is a right winger. But to a neo Nazi a Democrat is a Marxist.

    Making nobody really anything.
     
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  5. dvcochran

    dvcochran Grandmaster

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    As near as I can tell you read around the point(s) that confirm the hospitals are incentivised to code visits as COVID. I do not know how you can read around that.
     
  6. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    I could really use a link to that neutrality rule you're talking about, though. Which forum rule are you respecting, exactly? :D
     
  7. dvcochran

    dvcochran Grandmaster

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    Well, everyone knows by now you are going to rebuke and attack me no matter what I say. You attack even when I have said nothing. Just continues to show how bad your form is and your poor character. Shallow. Very, very shallow.

    As for you 3 things:
    1) When leveraged and used effectively with regulatory control profit is the most power tool possible to facilitate change in the healthcare system.
    2.) It is a three headed demon: hospitals, pharmaceuticals, and insurance companies. Again, regulation not totalitarian control from a political/social structure that knows nothing about the inner workings is the only way to ever help correct the system. Take the profit out of the equation and all you do is create an industry that quality people (doctors/nurses) do not want to work for. We will end up with the terrible care you hear about in socialized economies. I do agree that it needs to be totally blown up in a sense. To the point their needs to be much more separation in some areas and streamlining in others.
    3.) What? More self created delusion.

    Funny. Sad but funny. Take a poll from every industrialized country and see where the US stands. I will modify a commonly made statement. If it is so bad here in the US move north across the border.

    You have traveled around. Have you ever had to use socialized medicine in a totally private sense (not military)?
     
  8. dvcochran

    dvcochran Grandmaster

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    In the states, elective surgery was put on hold due to the uncertain infection rate of the virus. At least in TN they continued elective surgery in August.
    I cannot speak to the claims of lost money but do not see how it is possible since a visit to the doctor for cold/flu symptoms is billed at about a factor of just over 9 times more if C-19 is applied. So for the vastly greater number of C-19 cases where a person just felt crappy, (cold/flu symptoms) and was nothing more that an office visit, the hospital/doctor made almost 10 times more money. Great incentive to use the virus to make money.
    We all know most everyone in healthcare seemed to be working double overtime in areas. There may be a low curve, slingshot effect going on with payouts but there is no denying the incentives for using C-19 to make money in the healthcare industry.
     
  9. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    I haven't attacked you. I have focused on your behavior. You posted a link from 1986, and I just don't believe you read carefully before sharing it. As I said before, if you actually read the article and agree with it, I think you're more in favor of single payer than you may realize. There is much in that article that I agree with wholeheartedly, and we've seen the impact of many of the observations magnify over the last 35 years.
    I agree that profit can be a powerful motivator. The issue isn't whether profit is motivating.

    I also agree that regulatory control is critical. It's like the conscience for business, keeping people from doing things they shouldn't.

    Where we disagree is that profit and healthcare is moral. I do not believe so. When you introduce powerfully motivating, base impulses like greed into the equation, pitting that against misery, greed wins.
    I don't know what to do with this. It's just so fundamentally flawed, I honestly don't know where to start. I mean, you manage to imply that every healthcare worker in every country with a single payer system is a not a quality person, and also suggest that the quality of care in those countries is terrible. Both, I think, are ignorant mischaracterizations.
    Now, this is something I can work with. Data! Turns out, there are a lot of polls. You seem to consider the NIH a credible source. This is an article I read earlier this year, when I was knocking on doors during the primaries. It's from 2012, so it's not the most current, but it's still very relevant. For context, it was written shortly after the ACA was ratified in 2010.

    Comparisons of Health Care Systems in the United States, Germany and Canada

    Turns out, in America, about 58% of folks overall are in favor of a single payer system. Here's a link to a Kaiser Health Tracking Poll from 2015, so in the run up to the LAST election. Kaiser Health Tracking Poll: December 2015

    In the USA, we spend more on healthcare (by a lot), including among the highest administrative costs by far than most other countries, have the lowest life expectancy of any comparable country, and people are the LEAST satisfied with their care. There is also well documented systemic racism within the system that results in a disproportionate number of issues for people of color than for white patients.

    Here's a link to a relevant Gallup poll from 2015 (again, in the run up to the last election): Ratings of U.S. Healthcare Quality No Better After ACA
    Digging into actual satisfaction numbers, folks with government managed health care (military, veterans, Medicare, and Medicaid) are the most satisfied with the way the health care system is working.
    Americans With Government Health Plans Most Satisfied

    [​IMG]
    Lastly, regarding where we rank, maybe this will be helpful: U.S. health care system ranks lowest in international survey

    And about travelling, what kind of experience do you have with universal healthcare?

    Also, I wonder why you would separate military healthcare, which is a single payer system, with all of its strengths and weaknesses, as somehow different. Can you explain that more?
     
  10. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    I'm with you on this one. I don't like the classifications and labels. It starts everything Sunday2020
    Show me where it says that Hospitals are incentivized to code visits as COVID. Point that out to me.
     
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  11. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    Fair enough. Another way to say the same thing is, if the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
     
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  12. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    The thread is showing me that we are reading the same articles but aren't getting the same message out of it. There seems to be one group that reads it and accepts it at face value and another group that "reads into it" as if there's a secret message. If everyone has a perspective. I wonder if the people who take it for face value usually talk that way in everyday conversations. While the other group "talks in code" where they aren't just coming out and saying what they mean, but kind of beats around the conversation in a way that forces people to try to figure stuff out.

    You and I read the articles is it's literally stating what are claiming. Then Dvcochran makes a statement saying that I'm "reading the point" I think my new approach is going to ask 2 questions from now own.
    1. What was the point in the article
    2. What do you think the article is saying.

    Stuff like that could cause tons of misunderstanding and cause a severe break down in communication.

    In my everyday communications, I tend to take the word of a person and match it up with their actions. But I've met people who have said to me directly "Marvin I can't figure you out." I'm always shocked because there's not much to figure out about me. I'm fairly straight forward. There's never a secret agenda with me.
     
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  13. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    Good points. Anything unclear about the links I shared? I try to provide some context along with the links, so it's clear why I'm sharing it.
     
  14. Bruce7

    Bruce7 Black Belt

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    I have friends and relatives on the front lines in hospitals and statements like your hurts them. They are honest to God hero in my book.
     
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  15. dvcochran

    dvcochran Grandmaster

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    I fully agree. But that is a different topic isn't it? I am in no way marginalizing what they are doing. Let me be very clear; I thank them for their efforts, now through this virus and all other times.
    My apologies if the statements sounded wrong or were taken the wrong way.
     
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  16. dvcochran

    dvcochran Grandmaster

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    I did. It is in the link I added earlier.
     
  17. dvcochran

    dvcochran Grandmaster

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    There is a third group. Those that read the article(s) and ignore the parts they do not agree with.
     
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  18. dvcochran

    dvcochran Grandmaster

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    You are truly a desperate, strange individual. You think what you post on a MA forum is 'focusing my behavior'. You are consistently hilarious however.


    You see profit as greed? Truly strange. Do make a profit at whatever job you do?

    Kaiser family is extreme leftist. Period. I am not surprised you referenced them however.

    I am not going to waste time commenting on the rest. Just pointless with you.
     
  19. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    That post seems over the line to me.

    About the only thing I can respond to, since you sort of asked, I don't know anything about the Kaiser family or their politics. All I know is that Kaiser is the original health insurance company in America. They were the first to provide any sort of "pre-paid" health care. I referenced them because they did a study that is relevant, and they're literally the OG Health Insurance company in the USA.

    Fun fact: I still have my grandfather's Kaiser medical card from when he worked on the Liberty Ships in WWII at the Kaiser shipyards as a welder. He carried it in his wallet from WWII until he passed in the 90s, so it was clearly important to him.

    Regarding the rest, the part you didn't want to waste your time commenting on is the 80% of my post where I shared links to information and articles from sources like Gallup and the NIH, while providing some context so you know why I posted the links and what I think they mean. Cool. But if you're not going to address the data, why post a response at all?

    Edit: So, I went back to reread the thread. I think you're escalating, and you're getting increasingly bold, and saying things that are more and more overtly insulting. I will admit that I'm getting pretty tired of your increasingly nasty tone. This isn't the first time you've called me strange, desperate or other things, and you need to fix that. Disagree with my posts, fine. I disagree with most of yours. But you need to stop with the personal attacks.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2020
  20. Monkey Turned Wolf

    Monkey Turned Wolf MT Moderator Staff Member

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    THREAD LOCKED

    William Hollwedel
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