Why does everyone mouth off on TKD?

[Battousai]

Well from what I know boxing is taught in a gym, and if it is taught it's taught by a personel trainer. TKD is taught in a dojo, where people come to learn what supposedly is a martial art. People usually don't think of boxing as a martial art, because there's alot more to a martial art then winning matches. Yet TKD schools that only teach how to win tournaments act as if they are a martial art and teach all the things that a martial art teaches, which they don't. They teach sport fighting, with little if any emphasis on self defense outside of tournament settings.

I say sport TKD is not effective simply because it creates a false mind set about self defense, it teaches and uses techniques that would be utterly ridculous in real life situations.

Something thats said in my dojo is that you need to put in 110% into the training, because in real life you would be lucky to be able to do something 60% as well as in the class. Self defense is not something thats easy to learn, it takes years and years. Yet here we have these schools teaching sport, saying that its self defense. It just makes it that much harder to learn real self defense. We have schools that are dedicated to real life self defense that spend 100% of their time teaching self defense, and at that rate it takes years to really get a grip on anything, and then we have schools that barely give the students 10% of their class time on self defense, yet claim to be as good for self defense as the schools that teach it 100% of the time. Thats nonsense.

If its sport, it should be advertised as such.

 

[Pyrael]

Originally posted by Battousai

I say sport TKD is not effective simply because it creates a false mind set about self defense, it teaches and uses techniques that would be utterly ridculous in real life situations.

well its obvious that you and others can see the defining line of sport and development of personal ambitions (self defence, practical combat strength etc). if you can see flaws, then correct them. can't? then avoid them. dont waste time on what you dont think you can benefit from ie sport fighting. tkd not effective? no. why? because i can move so fast that my opponent wouldnt notice the butterfly kick to his or her face. i learned a great deal and this art isnt bull. false mindset? we see the evidence but like i said, you know what they are and deal with them. just follow your gut.:asian:

 

[Pyrael]

heheh i just turned to a yellow belt

 

[Damian Mavis]

Keepin it real!

I think if a TKD artist keeps it real in his head and trains for the street and not for tournaments then he is doing ok. From the beginning I trained for the street, I never cared how I fared at a tournament even though I did well; every technique I threw I though of its real life applications and decided what I wouldn't use in a fight. When I started teaching I wanted to teach a fighting art, not a sport. So when we do our techniques it's with the sole purpose of surviving a fight on the street and all my students understand that. Yes we learn techniques that aren't street oriented but I tell them each and every time we do that it's not safe for the street. I also teach them gymnastics and that has nothing to do with the street but its fun!

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[karatekid1975]

Amen Damian! I do the same thing when I learn or do a technique. I think about what works in real life while I do each technique, even step sparring. I turn it into a real fight situation in my head, and aim for pressure points, ect. High kicks are fun, and I love doing them, but when I do step sparring, self defense, ect. I don't do them. I keep the kicks low and use more hand tichniques.

 

[gaille]

Ty K. Doe: your avatar reminds me of something !!!

 

[Chiduce]

Originally posted by gaille

Ty K. Doe: your avatar reminds me of something !!!

Great Site; I will visit again! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

 

[Ty K. Doe]

Great Site; I will visit again! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

In response to:

Originally posted by gaille

Ty K. Doe: your avatar reminds me of something !!!

Huh?

Originally posted by gaille
Ty K. Doe: your avatar reminds me of something !!!

I'm glad you like it. I do. I'll change it if you want me to.

 

[Ty K. Doe]

Isn't it considered defense when your able to keep somebody from hurting you if you can keep them away by using any kind of kick? Or being able to pinpoint openings on a persons body and attack the crap out of them to keep them from attacking the crap out of you? Isn't it defense if you can keep an attacker from getting you on the ground either by feet or fist?

Wasn't General Choi chosen to head up the development of a TKD system because of his military experience and background and his martial arts background, having the knowledge to know what is practicle for fighting and defensive techniques in battle? Isn't battle a life or death situation? So wouldn't TKD be effective enough?

It's just like anything else, don't judge something solely based on the worst that's seen. The judgement should be made on the whatever level has produced the best level of achievement. I'm a school teacher so I'll use this analogy. If I have 5 classes a day, one class produces nothing above a C average, but the other four produces a B average and above, you wouldn't judge my overall teaching affectiveness based on the below average class. The fact is the class is probably loaded with students with below average abillities. Or a below average desire to succeed. So you don't judge something based on its worst, but on its best, most effective. That is what demonstrates what it is capable of.

 

[Battousai]

Originally posted by Ty K. Doe

Isn't it considered defense when your able to keep somebody from hurting you if you can keep them away by using any kind of kick? Or being able to pinpoint openings on a persons body and attack the crap out of them to keep them from attacking the crap out of you? Isn't it defense if you can keep an attacker from getting you on the ground either by feet or fist?

Yes I think it would be considered self defense. But I don't think that the AVERAGE TKD student, black belt even, can do these things. I was an average TKD student long ago and I couldn't do jack.

Originally posted by Ty K. Doe

Wasn't General Choi chosen to head up the development of a TKD system because of his military experience and background and his martial arts background, having the knowledge to know what is practicle for fighting and defensive techniques in battle? Isn't battle a life or death situation? So wouldn't TKD be effective enough?

I know nothing of this General Choi, and neither does the average TKD instructor know anything of his teachings if he was so great.

Originally posted by Ty K. Doe

It's just like anything else, don't judge something solely based on the worst that's seen. The judgement should be made on the whatever level has produced the best level of achievement. I'm a school teacher so I'll use this analogy. If I have 5 classes a day, one class produces nothing above a C average, but the other four produces a B average and above, you wouldn't judge my overall teaching affectiveness based on the below average class. The fact is the class is probably loaded with students with below average abillities. Or a below average desire to succeed. So you don't judge something based on its worst, but on its best, most effective. That is what demonstrates what it is capable of.

I'm not judging TKD on the worst I've seen, I'm judging it on the grounds of the best I've seen, which is almost equal to the worst I've seen.

Maybe the good TKD instructors out there can teach the self defense you talked about and know the cool stuff this General Choi must of taught, I'm not arguing differently.

I say that the average TKD student, the average TKD instructor, doesn't know jack about self defense.

What I'm saying is the majority, I estimate 95 percent of TKD (that which takes the name TKD), is worthless for self defense.

I totally stipulate everyones points for TKD, you all must have good instructors from good schools.

However my point is simply that the majority of all that which passes for TKD is defication.

 

[Hollywood1340]

"I say that the average TKD student, the average TKD instructor, doesn't know jack about self defense. "
Their IQ vs. Rock
Advantage? Rock. Actually and unfair advantage I'd say. How much TKD have you seen? How many instructors have you talked to? I'll tell you what, stop by my school sometime and we'll chat I can't wait!

 

[Damian Mavis]

"I know nothing of this General Choi, and neither does the average TKD instructor know anything of his teachings if he was so great."

Battoussai.... I agree with alot of what you say and I'm a TKD instructor myself. BUT You say you were in TKD and you don't know the name of the founder? That was a little odd..... even in WTF I think they at least hear the name of of the man who created the term "Tae Kwon Do". And in ITF EVERYONE knows the name General Choi, especially instructors.

So I'm assuming that you were in a WTF school which would explain not knowing the name General Choi since he is the head of ITF and alot of WTF people probably don't credit him with founding TKD and that's fine. But if you were WTF...surely you know that ITF and WTF are fairly different? ITF is much more realistic than WTF for street defence and yet it is still by itself not great for self defence. WTF barely punches at all and that's to the torso only, ITF uses any hand technique and kick from the waist up. That gives it an advantage over WTF for streetworthiness but..... if you train in either of those federations and only do the kickboxing aspect than it's very limitted in it's street defence applications. That is why in my class we spend half the time doing traditional TKD (ITF style) and the other half of the class doing knees, elbows, headbutts, eye gouging, groin strikes, take down's, weaponry and submission grappling.

Anyway...just thought it wierd you were in TKD and didn't know who created the name TKD.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[Klondike93]

Those sound like fun classes Damian


:asian:

 

[gaille]

Ty K. Doe: no you can keep it, no problem.

I think Chiduce was refering to my web site you can access by clicking the "www" on the left side of the window in any of my post.

 

[Battousai]

Ya I was in TKD for a year. I don't even know if it was a WTF of ITF school, it was never spoken of at all. I could go dig up some old certificate stuff and find out I guess, I remember getting some paper thing with the federation seal on it.

That would be cool Hollywood, too bad we are in cyberspace though. Montana is a little far away physically
I've seen every TKD school in my city, Ft. Collins. At least I had at one point, lots more have poped up I suppose as others die off.

 

[deadhand31]

ITF is much more realistic than WTF for street defence and yet it is still by itself not great for self defence. WTF barely punches at all and that's to the torso only, ITF uses any hand technique and kick from the waist up. That gives it an advantage over WTF for streetworthiness

From my experience, you really can't claim that. I've seen posts on this subject that have been contradicted. I've been to a colleague's ITF school, and everything negative said about the WTF rings true for them. His school claims to be strict ITF under General Choi. Their belts have the yellow roman numerals, school name, and student name. They learn to fight with their arms at their sides, and throw no punches.

However, I learn at a WTF school. While we do have the belts with the yellow bars and names, we learn to fight with our hands up. We punch. In competition sparring we don't punch to the head, but for sreetfighting's sake we learn how to.


You have to be careful. You really can't tout "my organization is better than yours." That would just be giving in to more of those $#@*@ politics that exist in the martial arts world.


:soapbox:

 

[karatekid1975]

Amen, Deadhand!

My school is WTF. We learn all kinds of hand techniques. I was complaining about my school at first because I thought there wasn't enough self defense being taught. WRONG! It's not required till green belt, but then you get all the self defense your little brain can remember.

As far as sparring goes, I heard a rumor that the WTF is changing the rules as far as hand contact to the head. Anyone hear about this?

 

[Damian Mavis]

No no Deadhand31, I wasn't saying my organisation was better than yours... I could be part of the WWF wrestling federation I really don't care about organisation. All I said was ITF had a small advantage over WTF for street worthiness. That is just one aspect of the 2 styles... you don't see ITF in the olympics do you? Obviously WTF has some advantages in other areas.

As for the ITF school that spars with no hands...well like everyones already posted theres always going to be bad schools out there that do a disservice to the martial arts everywere.

If your WTF school is training in boxing to supplement its self defence aspects than lucky you! I didn't base my observations on watching the olympics....I go out and fight WTF guys all the time. They never use their hands and they always get caught off guard with punches to their face....I don't state an opinion unless I've actually tested it out in combat. Out of the 20 or so WTF schools I've visited NONE use hand techniques. You are lucky to go to a WTF school that trains the way it does...but that makes you a minority in WTF.

So I hope you don't think I'm bashing one organisation over the other....my god I train in several martial arts, do you know the attitude I get from the Muay Thai academy? They think all TKD and karate everywere is a joke. So no, I'm not saying one style of TKD is better than the other, I was just pointing out the differences as they relate to street defence. One art is always going to have an advantage over another depending on how they train. It's up to individual schools like yours and mine to not stick to the traditional way and prepare it's students for the street.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[Klondike93]

Originally posted by Battousai

Ya I was in TKD for a year. I don't even know if it was a WTF of ITF school, it was never spoken of at all. I could go dig up some old certificate stuff and find out I guess, I remember getting some paper thing with the federation seal on it.

That would be cool Hollywood, too bad we are in cyberspace though. Montana is a little far away physically
I've seen every TKD school in my city, Ft. Collins. At least I had at one point, lots more have poped up I suppose as others die off.

Do you remember the name of the school, living in denver prehaps Iv'e heard of it.

Me I was in the ITF, err I guess I still am being a member for life and all.

:asian:

 

[arnisador]

Here's a book that, to my mind, contributes to the negative stereotypes about TKD:

Black Belt Tae Kwon Do : The Ultimate Reference Guide to the World's Most Popular Black Belt Martial Art by Yeon Hwan Park and Jon Gerrard.

Not only is it the case that I have never heard an art other than TKD referred to as a "Black Belt Martial Art" but in addition this book (which is for WTF students) dedicates one of its eight chapters to "Opening Your Own School" including marketing and such. It seems to put the focus on obtaining the black belt then opening one's own school--the franchise/McDojo idea. I own the book--it's a nice refernce for the forms--but it sends the wrong message I think.