Why does everyone mouth off on TKD?

[fissure]

Bagatha,again these are not Taekwon Do specific tech. They are the same leg blocking/parrying/jamming movements that every stylist I have trained with uses.If you look at the sequence of post the point I'm trying to get across in this and other threads is for people not to judge an art ( mine happen to be Taekwon Do, and many years ago Shotokan) by it's competition rules.No there are not leg kicks in TKD tournys. but that doesn't mean they are no practised.In the same way does a fighter who competes in point fighting not know how to hit someone full power? After all they don'nt hit anyone in competion right? COMPETION IS NOT FIGHTING!!!! If you have any doughts look around, if you see a referee inforcing ANY kind of rule book, chances are your brobably in a tournament and not fighting for your life in some parking lot!
Sorry to get carried away

 

[Bagatha]

Ya ok, you went off on a tangent there I think lol , you asked for TKD techniques that were for low kicks, I posted a response, whether or not they are TKD specific or not I wouldnt know, but those are techniques that are taught. TKD of course is not only tourny fighting, otherwise it would be useless, and so would teaching those techniques.

 

[fissure]

Yeah, I tend to drift off into other thoughts sometimes!But I wasn't asking fot TKD low kick defences, I was responding to OldBean:

My understanding is that in competition low kicks are not allowed so what do you train to deal with them? I am thinking of self -defence - using your hands can work with smaller opponents but can be problematic if you face a heavy kick from a big opponent

Ok, so forget the competition side of TKD and think of TKD as a martial art - what TKD techniques would you use to defend against a low kick?

Thats why my response inquired about TKD specific tech.:asian:

 

[Bagatha]

My fault :O didnt read the whole thread

 

[Marginal]

Originally posted by fissure

these are not Taekwon Do specific tech. They are the same leg blocking/parrying/jamming movements that every stylist I have trained with uses.

Nonetheless, TKD teaches these as counters to low kicks as well. I'm not sure why they have to be exclusive to TKD (do they simply not work or what?) for someone to say that TKD has defenses in place for low kicks. It does.

-checking kick

-pressing blocks

-crescent kicks

-circular block

-knee blocks

These all be known by TKD practitioners. (Or at least those in the USTF) Seems more like you're creating an arbitrary distinction to reinforce whatever point it is that you're trying to make.

Saying they don't exist simply because their not unique is... Strange to say the least.

 

[fissure]

original posts by old bean:

My understanding is that in competition low kicks are not allowed so what do you train to deal with them? I am thinking of self -defence - using your hands can work with smaller opponents but can be problematic if you face a heavy kick from a big opponent.

Ok, so forget the competition side of TKD and think of TKD as a martial art - what TKD techniques would you use to defend against a low kick?

Marginal:

I'm not sure why they have to be exclusive to TKD

my posts where in responce to oldbean's questions.
you have to read the whole thread, or things get taken out of context!You'll notice he asks for TKD tech. specifically.

 

[Damian Mavis]

Marginal, I'm sorry but you are mistaken. TKD does not teach defences against leg kicks, but obviously YOUR instructor does....see the difference? If someone were to walk into my TKD school on a given night they might see me teaching some shootfighting techniques and grappling, does that mean TKD has brazillian Ju jitsu in it? NO, it means I as an instructor in TKD decided to teach other forms of defence because I thought it was important to survival in a street defence situation. I guess the difference between your instructor and I is that I give credit to other arts and dont play it off as if TKD incorporates the best of everything...cause it doesn't.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[fissure]

Damian , I 'm glad you could make the point.Apparently I couldn't!

 

[Marginal]

Thing is, if the techniques are in Choi's TKD encyclopedia, I'm not sure how they don't qualify as TKD techs.
Because not all schools teach them, they should then be ignored, or considered "not true TKD"? That doesn't really sit well with me. After all, round kick execution varies from WTF to ITF. Which is right? Apparently one is, and one is wrong because only the average teaching method is "true" TKD.

For that matter, not all TKD schools cover ho son sul. Are the self-defense techniques then also not part of TKD?

With all due respect, I cannot accept that reasoning.

 

[Damian Mavis]

Marginal...your awfully opinionated for an 8th gup, which is fine but I'm truly shocked that a yellow belt has been so..... gosh I'm trying to find a nice word for it but brainwashed is all that comes to mind. Your attitude about "true tkd" is very disheartening, and that attitude obviously comes from your instructor. I teach my students to be humble and to never get into an argument about my art is better than your art type thing , or my association is better than your association...

I've been all over visiting ITF schools and none of them teach half the stuff from the encyclopedia, if your instructor teaches it thats great for you but I assure you it is not the norm. Honestly I find the self defence and stuff from the encyclopedia to be unusable...and it surprises me that someone like yourself who also takes BJJ and Muay Thai would think otherwise.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[Marginal]

That's an interesting conclusion to draw. So I'm... Brainswashed.

Turth be told, I wasn't aware I was knocking any particular style. All I was saying was that one's particular view of the art is rarely all encompassing. (Which in my percetpion, makes definite claims of what is or isn't true TKD somewhat difficult to swallow.)

I realize that this thread's covering what TKD is in general, or at least what the general perceptions are, (Most people I've talked to seem to think TKD's purely about flipping off springboards and kicking apples off knives... Sigh) but saying stuff's not present in the art simply because someone elects not to teach it...

It's still there isn't it? If it's in the body of stuff you can potentially teach a TKD student, I'm still not sure how it doesn't count as TKD simply because it's not largely used.

The ho son sul comment was just another example of that. (Of course that seems to vary a lot depending on the TKD school as well. Most of the stuff we learn revolves around JJ style armlocks etc and a few hip throws... But then if I was looking for grappling, I'd be taking judo, BJJ, wrestling etc.) It wasn't meant to claim that it somehow takes the place of a dedicated art like BJJ etc. Obviously, it does not.

All my instructors have taught me in terms of relative superiority is that TKD isn't a dead art. It's supposed to evolve. (In short, what is TKD now may not be TKD as we know it 10 years down the road.) Some things are there merely for the sake of looking pretty, some of it's good defensive tactics etc. So going by that, it's hard to definitively state "This is not TKD" So my comments were never intended to say one style etc was better than one or another. They were aimed more at questioning the concept of "true" TKD, cause I haven't seen much (if any) agreement on that that actually is.

My instructors have spent zero time trying to impress superiority of one art over another, or of one branch of TKD over another. All they ask is that if you're there to train TKD, you do TKD. (Never stuck me as especially close minded as far as POV's go.)

Oh, and just to clarify, I don't train BJJ or MT. The profile thinggie just said "List arts you're interested in" Apologies for any confusion there.

 

[Damian Mavis]

"Apparently one is, and one is wrong because only the average teaching method is "true" TKD."

That to me sounded like you felt one federation was better than the other but I could have been mistaken as to your meaning. I said brainwashed because you are only a yellow belt and yet have all kinds of ideas about TKD... which to me at such an early level is brainwashing since it took me over a decade to figure things out and see them for myself instead of relying on what my instructor told me and treating it like gospel. If all your info is from your instructor, I am trying to point out that it might not be true just becuase he tells you it is.

Anyway, why don't you tell me a little about yourself so I understand your point a little better.... I run my own ITF school in Ottawa Canada but I myself train in several martial arts to supplement my TKD.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[Marginal]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis

"Apparently one is, and one is wrong because only the average teaching method is "true" TKD."

That to me sounded like you felt one federation was better than the other but I could have been mistaken as to your meaning.

No, it was meant more to be an extrapolation of the line of thinking that makes one technique TKD and not TKD as demonstrated in this thread.

I said brainwashed because you are only a yellow belt and yet have all kinds of ideas about TKD...

Not that many. Most of it's fairly self-evident as far as I can see. I'm not going to say TKD has no hand techniques due to the shotokan derived nature of the punching for example. Doesn't make sense.

which to me at such an early level is brainwashing since it took me over a decade to figure things out and see them for myself instead of relying on what my instructor told me and treating it like gospel.

I've never really felt compelled to treat what my instructor says as gospel. What they say does make sense though. (Mainly because they've all been through more or less the same process you have. One instructor even made a simlar comment to the one quoted above, how what TKD was didn't click until he was 2nd Dan or so...)

If all your info is from your instructor, I am trying to point out that it might not be true just becuase he tells you it is.

I realize this. It's partly why I'm not taking what you say as the whole truth as well.

Anyway, why don't you tell me a little about yourself so I understand your point a little better....

Either the point stands on its own or it does not. My background shouldn't determine whether or not TKD has a crescent kick IMO...

Anyway, I've been training for around 8 months. I'm leaving it at that. (I really, really don't want to play politics, and schools closer tied to Gen Choi seem to be drawing a lot of flack in this forum.) I mainly got into TKD because my college offered it free. I enjoyed it, so I kept it up with a dojang close to my house when I'm not in school. I'll probably branch out into BJJ or something else later when I have the time (and money).
The way my schedule runs though, I'm not likely to make 6th gup (presuming I pass the belt tests) until next spring. Don't mind that much. Least I'll have a decent handle on the basics at this rate.

When I'm interested in something though, I tend to try to read everything on a subject that I can find. I've seen a whole lot of TKD debates in various forums etc, read some interesting articles, books and so on. (That's where most of my opinions stem from.)

 

[artful dodger]

I haven't had time to read this whole thread, but yeah I have noticed a lot of mouthing off of TKD. Parallelling it to synchronised swimming was a recent one. It does tend to be people who haven't been in MA for very long. You notice the more experienced practitioners are generally of the opinion that its not the art you train in but how you train in your art, advocating that crosstraining its not necessary either. Just know your stuff better than your opponent knows his/hers.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by artful dodger

You notice the more experienced practitioners are generally of the opinion that its not the art you train in but how you train in your art

Yup. This is the big thing, though some arts are a better match for some people I believe.

 

[Damian Mavis]

My whole point and what I've been leading up to has actually had nothing to do with what techniques are what. You mention crescent kick, I know there is a crescent kick, I havent actually been concerned with that.

When I read your first post and checked your background I saw a yellow belt with an awful lot of information and opinions that was vehement in what he believed. So I wanted to get into it a bit with you to try to figure you out a little... since you do not behave like any yellow belt I have ever encountered. The feeling I've been getting from you and what I was hoping you would freely admit is that you truly believe that youre in a TKD school superior to others.... this is a common trait of ALOT of schools. In your last post you kinda solidified what I was looking for by mentioning "I really, really don't want to play politics, and schools closer tied to Gen Choi seem to be drawing a lot of flack in this forum." If after only 8 months you believe this or even know of this for that matter means your instructor is force feeding you a handful of crap about your school being closer to the General and therefore your TKD is "truer TKD" and superior to all the copy cats out there... even if we too are ITF. This is arrogant and ignorant.

You have no respect for your seniors, your instructor is obviously so busy teaching you how much better your TKD is he neglected to teach you humility and respect. If we ever meet at a tournament or seminar would you debate me about an art I actually teach with such vehemence in person? You trained for 8 months, read a few books and listened to every morsel of garbage your instructor has fed you.... and you firmly believe that you are right and every other instructor in your art is wrong. Do you know how I know TKD has no defence for leg kicks besides the fact that I teach the art? I have thrown full contact leg kicks at TKD artists in our federation time and time again and each and every time they go flat on their back or eat a solid charlie horse. THEY HAVE NO DEFENCE FOR LEG KICKS.

I have bled and sweat and lived the agony of years of hard training. What you take out of a book I have tested and tried in real life year after year...... most of it is garbage. It is truly foolish of you to come here with such limitted experience and claim it as truth when you really have nothing to back it up but a book.

To others reading this thread I know I sound arrogant... keep in mind that I am debating with someone who is in my exact art and federation, our techniques are identical, our philosophy is identical and our methods of training are ALMOST universal. I disagree with my seniors all the time, but I don't actually debate them on it because I feel that maybe their 20 years in my martial art has garnered them some wisdom and knowledge I don't know about, not to mention a little respect from me. Of course I could be wrong about their wisdom but I always give them the benefit of the doubt.

Anyway Marginal..... take my posting however you like, I could be wrong about your instructor and maybe this is just all you going out and forming opinions based on your own research and not what he is telling you. Either way you need to curb your "know it all" attitude if you don't have more to back it up when debating with an instructor in your own art. Students like you are usually led to the door with a firm handshake and a goodbye.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[Marginal]

I'm now somewhat confused. I'm supposed to ignore what my instructors say, but another instructor I'm supposed to listen to without question. (Puts me in a rather strange spot...) That's the problem with a "carefully" baited trap...

I have not been told that my school is superior to others, nor has this been implied while I'm training. But of course, as I'm incapable of forming an opinion on my own, this thought was probably programmed in by my instructors as well. (Sigh) If anything, this has to do with me reading on some TKD history. How did an art with sweeps etc manage to overlook counters to low kicks? I'm honestly curious.

There's not a good deal of vehemence going on here. I'm simply looking for clarification. Are the techniques there, or are they not? So far, all I've been told is that they're not taught. But that's not always the same thing.

 

[Damian Mavis]

Alright lets take this down a notch. I was angry for 2 reasons, one was because it seemed like you were coming from one of the many schools that literally brainwashes its students and the other reason was because you appeared to be one of those "keen" students that thinks they know more than they actually do. You came on this board telling people that are far more experienced and educated in this martial art that they were wrong and you were right. Kind of an extremely annoying thing to listem to coming from someone with 8 months of training and some information from a book. If I'm completely wrong about you then I apologise. I'm speaking this way to you now because you are asking questions instead of telling me what you think is the truth..... even if your questions are setting off my sarcastimetre into the red zone.


" How did an art with sweeps etc manage to overlook counters to low kicks? I'm honestly curious."

Good question, I'm assuming you mean sweeps from the encyclopedia? Even if you mean the sweeps that came from the karate that TKD was based on you still have to wrap your head around the almighty fact that the karate and the encyclopedia both have many elements that were never universally taught and promoted. I've visited many ITF schools and talked with students and instructors from all over and sweeps, leg kicks and defences against leg kicks are not trained. By trained I mean trained regularly... if your shown a leg sweep once in 10 years and never get to practice it in class again that does not count. If your school is teaching sweeps regularly it could be because your instructor is actually taking something from the encyclopedia (wish I had a copy on me at the moment) and teaching it or he learned it from another art or his instructor learned it from another art and is teaching it. If your instructor doesn't teach sweeps than I don't understand why you even asked that question. If one out of a thousand ITF schools is teaching it I do not think it is part of the art even if its in the book.

Its very important you understand something, if I throw a leg kick at just about ANY person who only trains in ITF TKD they will fail to react appropriately. That is what happens when you do not train regularly for a certain situation i.e leg kick. If I throw that same kick at his torso.. guess what? He will easily block and or evade that kick because that is what he trains for on a regular basis. You cant look at a book and say "well gee! looky here at the picture! if anyone ever kicks me in the leg I'll just crescent kick it to the side and I'll have defended myself!" This is the whole basis of my argument, to actually be a part of a martial art it has to be practiced hour after hour just like all the other fundamental principles in that art. You know that wrist lock your instructor taught you that one time 6 months ago? Stuff like that is garbage, why waste your time with teaching it to you once and then never touch it again for years to come... that technique is garbage because it will never actually come into play in a street defence situation considering it isnt ingrained into your brain as a natural fighting movement from hours of practice and use. Therefore wristlocks are not part of TKD.

Lets look at Thai boxers, you throw your hardest, fastest round kick at their leg and they simply lift their knee and block it without even realising what they've done, its instinct from having that same kick thrown over and over at them. Throw the same kick at an ITF TKD artist with no other experience and they almost always fail to even register the kick is coming because it is going to a place the never trained to defend from.

It seems you are under the impression that TKD is a complete art full of valuable techniques to thwart any attack of any kind. This is simply not true. All arts are limitted and have their weaknesses, ITF TKD is definately not an exception.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[Rob_Broad]

After reading the posts lately between Marginal and Damian Mavis, I am a little intrigued at what will be said next. As a person with some ITF and WTF training along side my primary art, I have my opinons on what has been said. First, Marginal, you should listen to what people have to say a little more before becoming defensive. Damian Mavis, I know it is hard to remember looking at the journey through a beginner's eyes. Their passion is what keeps most arts alive.

many people now consider TKD to be a martial sport rather than a martial art. I know that thee are many federations out there for TKD (like most other arts). Even if you are following the encyclopedia there are many things that are not taught at most schools. Unless a basic and or principle is stressed constantly it is useless. Being an American Kenpo practioner primarily I know and have seen a lot of self defense techniques. Some work anytime, but many do not, they are based on antiquated theories and have not evolved.

All I can say is look for as much positive material you can and discard the negative, there is too much negativity in the world to be griping over who does this and who does that.

 

[Damian Mavis]

Actually Marginal and I took it to private emails and we both understand eachother now and I personally respect his opinion and like him, he's a good guy. I think he's going to have an exciting trip down the path of his martial arts evolution and I envy him in that I kinda wish I could start all over again just to experience things for the first time again.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD