Why 'Chunners aren't good fighters...

[Joab]

But Greenlake Martial Arts School doesn't teach Wing Chun as most people think of it. John Beall was a student of James DeMille, who was a student of Bruce Lee's. Bruce Lee taught his modified (and incomplete) version of Wing Chun to James DeMille when he was in Seattle. James Demille developed his own system, Wing Chun Do, independently while keeping much of what he was taught by Bruce Lee and retaining a lot of Wing Chun concepts, but it is much different from Wing Chun. He even uses the title Sijo to reflect this. My understanding of Sifu John Beall's style is that it is his further personal modification of what he learned from James DeMille.

This in no way is intended to comment on the quality or effectiveness of what Sifu Beall teaches, I've been impressed with the few students of both Beall and DeMille that I've met, but it is not Wing Chun in the sense that the vast majority of chunners on here would think of it as, and should probably be taken into account when discussing the topic of 'Why Chunners aren't good fighters'.

Your right. It is a modern Wing Chun system, actually both are. But its what I have experienced. I took a more traditional
Wing Chun class once one time, it was too different, I dropped out.

 

[geezer]

OK, so WT,WC,VT can be too cerebral for its own good.

What do you all do to counter this? For example in WT we are very heavy into lat sao for the first few years of training.


Does anyone have any particular strategy, favorite drills etc that you'd like to pass along?

I'd like to see the WT Lat Sau drills put into a book. I never gained more than a spotty familiarity with them since they were developed by Keith Kernspecht's EWTO and integrated into the American WT system later when Emin came over. Back in the 80's when I trained under LT, he used to "pooh-pooh" the lat sau training as "some funny thing made up by the Germans". Well those same Germans can kick butt! The lat sau seems to be a great way to introduce early-on the techniques that traditionally came later in the WT Chi-Sau sections, using them in practical sparring applications.

Right now I'm still focusing an polishing up those Chi-Sau sections. They are sooo deep.

 

[Skubysnak]

WC is not a sport. If we were allowed to do what we are taught, then a bunch of busted up noses, chins and eyes would occur. MMA is a sport. They still fight with rules.

 

[yak sao]

I'd like to see the WT Lat Sau drills put into a book.


That's a fantastic idea.........anybody?

I've seen 3 versions. The German version, the Americanized interpretation of the German version and Emin's own program that was taught in EBMAS.
It's all good stuff, personally I would have to say I prefer Emin's.

 

[geezer]

I'd like to see the WT Lat Sau drills put into a book.


That's a fantastic idea.........anybody?

I've seen 3 versions. The German version, the Americanized interpretation of the German version and Emin's own program that was taught in EBMAS.
It's all good stuff, personally I would have to say I prefer Emin's.

OK, the guys I work out with locally include one guy that's at about 8th student grade and has a pretty good grasp of the "Americanized" version, and then there are a couple of Ebmas guys we see once in a while who are good at his version. From what I've seen, I'd agree that the Ebmas version is very good. After all, Emin is "the man" for fighting applications.

Unfortunately the politics of WT (as well as my own limited finances) make it impossible for me to train both with my current instructor and Ebmas. But if Emin ever puts out a DVD on lat sau, I'm buying it!

 

[Beginner's Mind]

If I understand this correctly, the original question is not "why (some) Chunners are bad fighters", but "why is Wing Chun perceived as bad by the MA community?"

The answer is simple: MMA. MMA has become the epitome of "realistic combat" and there are no celebrity fighters using WC as their primary art.

Whether WC is really weak and whether cage fights are realistic is here irrelevant. It's simply what people have come to believe.

Now, to tell the truth, I feel there's a lot of bad Wing Chun out there. As I mentioned before, my first Sifu made me believe all of WC was fake. It took me years to give this art another chance. And now I'm glad I did.

 

[bradtash]

i dont currently do wing chun but wish that i did.
i have seen MANY videos over the net where people do wing chun and are absolutely crap.... i think this is where the "bad fighter" stereotype comes from or at least this contributes to it. i have seen "sifus" teaching lessons and even they are not really fluent with the style and this is this biggest injustice to wing chun, how can a student be good if their instructor is not good. i have street fights where the person was a chunner and let me say they were DANGEROUS. within a few seconds they had completely dominated and had the other guy on the ground.
i m currently doing muay thai, but to be honest if i came across a chunner i would hesitate. we train extremely hard conditioning our bodies and train 4-5 a week, i think that that may be the only advantage a muay thai person may have over a chunner. but i have seen the sheer speed that you guys can produce and youse are taught many things ie punch kicks and takedowns.
if there was a wing chun school near where i live i would be enrolled immediately, unforunately for me the closest is over an hours drive away.
stereotypes aside, as mentioned earlier it is the fighter not the style.

 

[Poor Uke]

I've been doing WC for about 7 years. I dont claim any matery of the system but know it pretty well. I went along to a Judo club last year and got completely nailed. I also went to an Arnis club and quickly realised that if I 'did' WC against a knife welding attacker i would probably die.

I do know plenty of very good WC fighters but have noticed that they usually trained other martial arts as well and so understand WC in a different way to people who have only ever trained WC.

Which brings me to a point often overlooked. If WC needs additional training at what point is it no longer WC but something else. I see alot of WCers now cross training (which I do). It just seems the proper attitude to have.

I have never understood the arrogant attitude that some purists have. Its just plain folly IMO.

Anthoo thanks for listening that was my first post went well me finks

 

[geezer]

I've been doing WC for about 7 years. I dont claim any matery of the system but know it pretty well. I went along to a Judo club last year and got completely nailed. I also went to an Arnis club and quickly realised that if I 'did' WC against a knife welding attacker i would probably die.

Don't worry, it's not just WC/WT. If you go unarmed up against a knife wielding attacker, especially a determined attacker who knows what he's doing, you will probably die no matter what you study. Reality is a *****.

BTW I've studied a couple of systems of escrima/FMA. I'm not all that good, but my instructors were, and they agree with this. Be cautious about anyone who says different.

I see alot of WCers now cross training (which I do). It just seems the proper attitude to have.

Some branches of WC/WT are more combat oriented and give you a broader background than others. There is no problem if you choose a less combative or more narrowly defined school as long as you are aware of your limitations.

IMHO if you want to be street proficient, you must know your enemy. At the very least you need to cross train towards that objective. But you don't have to out BJJ the jujutsu guys, or out kick the muay thai guys. You do have to be prepared to deal with what they've got. And, in all honesty, I'm not there yet either. It's on my to-do list. Meanwhile I practice staying out of trouble!

 

[chisauking]

This thread is a wast of time & space -- unless someone has conducted an extensive study on all the wing chun practitioners around the world.

Everyone can fight when their lives depend on it -- the only question is, to what level, and using what 'tools'?

Bit like saying the French can't bake, or the English can't drive.

 

[Poor Uke]

This thread is a wast of time & space -- unless someone has conducted an extensive study on all the wing chun practitioners around the world.

Everyone can fight when their lives depend on it -- the only question is, to what level, and using what 'tools'?

Bit like saying the French can't bake, or the English can't drive.

I think you'll find that alot of people see martial artists stepping up and putting there money where there mouth is. To date WC hasnt dont that in a public arena and been successful IMO.

OK OK before I get aload of "yeah but in der str33t stuff" or "yeah well thats just a sport, in r34l!ty I would goge his eyes out". There have been many NHB competitions where WC practishers have been free to fight....

So yeah the burden of proof in on WC.

Like I mentioned earlier the most effective WC fighters I have come across cross train, simple!

 

[chisauking]

Ok, so where's the proof that MMA champions can fight when their lives depended on it? You can't provide any, can you? So, based on your flawed logic, they can't fight.

Derek Jones from wing chun use to challenge anyone to street fights, and he would go to your own club to fight you on his own.

Wong sheung leung fought people that were armed with knifes \ choppers. He had the scars on his forehead to prove it.

Leung Jan from Fut shan was reknown as one of the best fighters in Canton, and he'd never lost despite accepting all challengers, during a time when fight means a fight, when one's life is on the line.

Lam Man Hong has also fought the Thais, and won, and many other street fights with the traids in Hong Kong, and never lost.

Anyone wanting to prove that they can fight when their lives depend on it can always look me up. I can arrange for people to try I chop your arms & legs off in China, where life is worth very little.

If you really want to test whether wing chun people can fight, you WILL be able to find them......it's funny that people who say such silly things don't go out of their way to find them.

Of course, people can do it in a safe environment....but it's different when their life depends on it, lol.

 

[dungeonworks]

Ok, so where's the proof that MMA champions can fight when their lives depended on it? You can't provide any, can you? So, based on your flawed logic, they can't fight.

Derek Jones from wing chun use to challenge anyone to street fights, and he would go to your own club to fight you on his own.

Wong sheung leung fought people that were armed with knifes \ choppers. He had the scars on his forehead to prove it.

Leung Jan from Fut shan was reknown as one of the best fighters in Canton, and he'd never lost despite accepting all challengers, during a time when fight means a fight, when one's life is on the line.

Lam Man Hong has also fought the Thais, and won, and many other street fights with the traids in Hong Kong, and never lost.

Anyone wanting to prove that they can fight when their lives depend on it can always look me up. I can arrange for people to try I chop your arms & legs off in China, where life is worth very little.

If you really want to test whether wing chun people can fight, you WILL be able to find them......it's funny that people who say such silly things don't go out of their way to find them.

Of course, people can do it in a safe environment....but it's different when their life depends on it, lol.

Tim Kennedy, Brian Stann, Luigi Fiorivanti are all combat tested in warzones and lived to tell and now fight for the UFC. Thats good enough for me.

I laugh everytime I hear a Wing Chunner try and cheapen an MMA fighters talents and how they would just get owned on the street. They can poke your eyes, grab your balls, grab your trachia...ect! Give me a break! If Wing Chun really wanted to get that level of notoriety, their would be more video footage. It's been around centurys before video and the only Wing Chun in action footage that I have came accross is that laughable (at best) Boztepe fight from 250 yrs ago. I can turn the tv on and watch MMA right now.

I am not downing the style of Wing Chun at all, I love it. The problem I have is soooo many practitioners making wild eyed claims with nothing to prove it with. When a video is posted, say on YouTube for instance, look at the comments....Chunner's can't even agree on if it was Wing Chun or not 101% of the time!:whip:

 

[dungeonworks]

WC is not a sport. If we were allowed to do what we are taught, then a bunch of busted up noses, chins and eyes would occur. MMA is a sport. They still fight with rules.

Ummm....they do. Watch any of the 100+ UFC events or better yet, any of the Brazilian Vale Tudo stuff (its bareknuckle).

Perfect example of a Chunner propping up a great art while trying to cheapen MMA. In otherwords, it is called fantasy land.

 

[Poor Uke]

Ok, so where's the proof that MMA champions can fight when their lives depended on it? You can't provide any, can you? So, based on your flawed logic, they can't fight.

Derek Jones from wing chun use to challenge anyone to street fights, and he would go to your own club to fight you on his own.

Wong sheung leung fought people that were armed with knifes \ choppers. He had the scars on his forehead to prove it.

Leung Jan from Fut shan was reknown as one of the best fighters in Canton, and he'd never lost despite accepting all challengers, during a time when fight means a fight, when one's life is on the line.

Lam Man Hong has also fought the Thais, and won, and many other street fights with the traids in Hong Kong, and never lost.

Anyone wanting to prove that they can fight when their lives depend on it can always look me up. I can arrange for people to try I chop your arms & legs off in China, where life is worth very little.

If you really want to test whether wing chun people can fight, you WILL be able to find them......it's funny that people who say such silly things don't go out of their way to find them.

Of course, people can do it in a safe environment....but it's different when their life depends on it, lol.

Do you have any personal experience to bring to the discussion?

I have put myself out and gone to BJJ, Judo, Arnis clubs each time with the same reults. WC is limited in application against trained fighters who arent too arrogant to cross train.

I love WC but your assertions just dont hold up to the mounting evidence to the contrary.

 

[yak sao]

Do you have any personal experience to bring to the discussion?

I have put myself out and gone to BJJ, Judo, Arnis clubs each time with the same reults. WC is limited in application against trained fighters who arent too arrogant to cross train.

I love WC but your assertions just dont hold up to the mounting evidence to the contrary.

Where most"WC" people run into trouble is they are tunnel visioned. They train hard I'm sure, but only against their own style. My old si-fu referred to this as 'incest'.
Chunners are not the only ones guilty of this. Back when I studied Southern Shaolin I saw TKD people who had never experienced another style of fighter who were dumbfounded when we grabbed their arm and swept their leg. Most boxers spar other boxers, etc.
My WT group is comprised of a bunch of old Shaolin guys like me, so while we train WT exclusively now for the past 14 years or so, we are not thrown for a loop when we see a spinning back kick or a hook puch. Some of our guys that have not trained in other styles do have a tougher time "thinking outside the box" but that's where the groups previous MA experience helps out. We've have/had in addition to Shaoliners, BJJ guys, boxers, wrestlers, kenpo, TKD, krav maga. yada yada in our group so when we practice lat sao it's not just incest, we go outside the family.

 

[matsu]

if you are taught what to expect and how to deal with many different scenarios you can still "wing chun it" it might call for a variation of the technique but as long as its still using the fundamentals its still wing chun.
or am i off bat here?
also the mma thing.....dont you watch it sometimes and see soooo many sloppy moves that you know if the opponent knew wing chun he could have taken them out? i do, but i,m not stupid enough to think we are better.
i watched ultimate fighter heavyweights last nite and the london fella was bigging himself up and then was crap i thought.all his supposed training just went out of the window and he was just swinging and running.if the massive dude from alabama had been any good he would have destroyed him with any technique from any style.
some guys i know dont do anything,theyre just animals and chain punching them would be like an irritating fly they would swat.
my heel kick to their knee would be a whole different ball game tho lol!
in a real fight its ugly messy and i doubt any clear sound technques could be recognised from outside but a wc guy we hope would use the principles to his advantage and be able to do what other styles dont do..........if he played his game and not tried to play at their game. wing chun wont work against a boxer you keep at arms lenght and let him jab you all day but if you close him down he cant do what he wants but you can,same with tkd karate or most martial arts they have distinct ways to use their techniques, we just shouldnt let them get in a position to do that.
thats waht the gracies did when they first stormed the cage-they took everyone down by forcing their game onto others.
phew verbal overload!
matsu

 

[Xue Sheng]

Just about any MA can get into trouble if it trains strictly within itself to long, even, dare I say it…MMA.

Old days (talking when Ip Man was alive) Wing Chun had a lot of compitition and other styles to fight. Today in the US, not so much, but that does not mean that there are no Wing Chun fighters left.

 

[chisauking]

I'm not putting down other ma people, since I love ALL ma.

But the trouble stems from bubble heads -- what I call pepsi & popcorn mentality -- thinking that the ultimate 'testing' ground for a fighting method, is in a sport environment. If it doesn't do well in a ring, then it's rubbish. Well, I'm just turning it around. If it doesn't do well when your life depends on it, then it's rubbish.

If you think wing chun people can't fight, than that's fine. I have no problem with that. But I for one know that your assumption isn't based on real life experience, but on what you see on tv.

Funny, my mum used to believe WWF WTF wrestling was the ultimate fighting method, lol. So did all the other gullible audiences munching on their popcorn, drinking their pepsi.

Unless someone wants to take up my offer to test themselves, then I'm not wasting another precious minute on this pointless topic.

 

[chinaboxer]

this subject is as old as the cheese that's sitting in my fridge.

first off, there are two types of fighting...

wing chun for self defense "in the street".
wing chun for competition "in the ring".

they require completely different fighting strategies. so to answer the original question, first you have to ask, "which type of fighting are we talking about"?

the answer has nothing to do with "rules in the ring", or "i can eye gouge you if you grapple me" or anything else of that nature.

the answer is really really simple..it has to do with "closing the gap". this is the main reason wing chun fails "in the ring", because they are not taught how to get close to someone who doesn't let you get close to them.

but "in the street", it's another story, because you don't have to "close the gap", why? because your opponent "closes the gap" for you. so you don't even have to move an inch, this is why wing chun works "in the street".

i talk about this subject at my website, check it out at the link below...

http://www.thechinaboxer.com/2009/09/05/closing-the-gap/